Looking for a 45 ACP "Light Target" bullet, 170 grain SWC similar to the Magnus #801

Dave tells me it's because my Baer was never intended for Bullseye, but my Premiere II doesn't like the Magnus #801 bullets I've been using for a few years now for my wad guns.  Terry Labbe sent me some samples of the #806 - will try in my Springfield tomorrow, but I shot 20 of them today in my Baer, with no issues.  The problem is, Terry is out of everything, trying to catch up on orders, and nobodyI can find has the #806 bullets in stock.


Does anyone here know of where I might be able to buy some more, or of an appropriate (similar) bullet that might work in the Baer?  
They seem to cycle through the Baer with no problem, both indoors with my "dummy rounds" and at the range today.

.....no, I'm not about to cast my own.  That is light years over my skill level !!

(I'm also curious as to why the #801 bullet doesn't work in my Baer.  Terry tells me the 801 works fine in his Baer.  Dave tells me that a gunsmith making a bullseye gun makes changes that would allow these bullets to work.  For me, they either jam, like when I had the extractor issue in my Springfield, or today, when I got a "stovepipe".) 

801's worked in my Baer Wadgun Mike.

Have you tried the the swaged 811's?  They have a longer nose, I have had good success with them.  

Since I've got a couple thou rounds of 811 loaded and other bullets on the shelf, I may have 1K of the 811s that I can sell you at Terry's normal price.  LMK

mikemyers wrote:Dave tells me it's because my Baer was never intended for Bullseye, but my Premiere II doesn't like the Magnus #801 bullets I've been using for a few years now for my wad guns. 

Well first time I’ve heard that one. Mike, have your pistol tuned to shoot whatever bullet you want to shoot. Not difficult for a gunsmith to do. 30 minute task.
Jon

Or just use any of the high quality 200 gr bullets that get digested in EVERYTHING

Give Bayou Bullet 185 grain swc's a try, some people don't like the hi-tek coated bullets but they work great in my wadcutter 1911.  I use that bullet and 3.8 grains of Bulleye or 4.5 grains of w231 both with a .464-.465 crimp.

james r chapman wrote:Or just use any of the high quality 200 gr bullets that get digested in EVERYTHING

Jim, my best guess (and it's only a guess) is that the shape of the bullet is the problem - the 806 has a longer nose, and it worked in my Baer.
Which high quality 200 gr bullets do you shoot?  ....and where do you buy them?   .....but I think I have a better idea.   Let me respond to Ian.

Aprilian wrote:801's worked in my Baer Wadgun Mike.

Have you tried the the swaged 811's?  They have a longer nose, I have had good success with them.  

Since I've got a couple thou rounds of 811 loaded and other bullets on the shelf, I may have 1K of the 811s that I can sell you at Terry's normal price.  LMK

Ian, if I understand things correctly, it's the geometry of the round, maybe the length, that is the problem.  I just looked up the #811 - until now, I never heard of it.  If it works in your Baer, it ought to work in mine, but so should the #801 which does not work reliably.

I left a message for Terry Labbe to see what he thinks about this.

I assume they'll also work fine in my Springfield wad gun.

Thanks for the offer - apparently these rounds are the same weight as the #801 but with a longer nose.  If so, I would like to buy them.  If Terry thinks the 811 will work for me, just let me know how much to send you for the bullets and shipping.  I expect to hear from Terry by this evening.  I'll send you my address, etc., by PM, and I would mail you a check tomorrow.

Jon Eulette wrote:

mikemyers wrote:Dave tells me it's because my Baer was never intended for Bullseye, but my Premiere II doesn't like the Magnus #801 bullets I've been using for a few years now for my wad guns. 

Well first time I’ve heard that one. Mike, have your pistol tuned to shoot whatever bullet you want to shoot. Not difficult for a gunsmith to do. 30 minute task.
Jon

Dave said it's not surprising that the 801 won't work in my Baer.  I don't know enough to understand why, or for that matter, why a longer nose solves the problem.  Last week as a test I took my own "dummy rounds" and the "dummy rounds" that Terry sent me, and none of them would cycle through my Baer.  They did the same thing that my Springfield did, when the extractor was too long/strong.  It wouldn't surprise me if the extractor in the Baer has the same issue.  The more feedback I get, the more confusabobbled I become. 

If the problem really IS the extractor, I know how to fix that now.
If the problem is more serious, I would want someone like you, Dave, or KC to work on it.  
I never had a problem when I was shooting Winchester White Box 230 grain ammo.


Question - the #801 and #811 are the same weight, but the nose on the 811 is longer.  Why would a person prefer one over the other?  What difference does it make?

What is the difference between these two bullets, Magnus #801 and #811 ?
Is it just the length of the nose?

Is it that the 811 is "swaged"?

I must be even more ignorant than I thought I was........

Question - the #801 and #811 are the same weight, but the nose on the 811 is longer.  Why would a person prefer one over the other?  What difference does it make?

811 is swaged and has a shorter bearing surface.  That means less bullet in the case, which means slightly more powder for same velocity.  I chose the swaged as they had a nice sharp edge that punched a cleaner hole than the button nose and were slightly more accurate at 50 (by reputation, I didn't test this).  I tried the swaged HP SWC 185 too (812?), it didn't do anything that the 811 didn't and I had to settle on something.

If you have trouble feeding shorter bullets (shorter COAL) then a longer nose can be a benefit without going up in weight.

mikemyers wrote:

james r chapman wrote:Or just use any of the high quality 200 gr bullets that get digested in EVERYTHING

Jim, my best guess (and it's only a guess) is that the shape of the bullet is the problem - the 806 has a longer nose, and it worked in my Baer.
Which high quality 200 gr bullets do you shoot?  ....and where do you buy them?   .....but I think I have a better idea.   Let me respond to Ian.

My AXI loves 160 gr lead. I shoot brazos. It also loves 200 gr swc from Brazos or Magnus

My Clark loves 200 gr bullets and eventually jams during the last RF strings on 160 Brazos or Dardas.

Aprilian wrote:
811 is swaged and has a shorter bearing surface.  That means less bullet in the case, which means slightly more powder for same velocity.  I chose the swaged as they had a nice sharp edge that punched a cleaner hole than the button nose and were slightly more accurate at 50 (by reputation, I didn't test this).  I tried the swaged HP SWC 185 too (812?), it didn't do anything that the 811 didn't and I had to settle on something.

If you have trouble feeding shorter bullets (shorter COAL) then a longer nose can be a benefit without going up in weight.

Ian, sounds great to me.  I'll send you an SMS with my address, and please send me an SMS with your mailing address, and how much I should write the check for.
Thank you!!   Sounds like a good solution for my issues, and maybe from now on, I'll get 811, not 801 in future orders from Terry.

How about Zero’s they make a beautiful 185 and 200 grain SWC

Mike,

Start from checking your magazine(s).  801 is similar to H&G #130 bullet.  It is short, and hence your round's COL is in 1.15 - 1.165" range.  You might need to check magazine lips, and experiment a little bit. 

Also polish feeding ramp of the barrel, and barrel hood too.

AP

James, I've been using bullets from Terry for as long as I've been shooting lead bullets.  
All things being equal, I'd prefer to support Terry.
Nothing wrong with Zero, I've got lots of Zero ammo for my Model 52.

Back to this thread, maybe somebody can explain to me how "swaged" fits into the Bullseye world.  I looked it up and found this, none of which I knew before today:

To "Swage" is to form projectiles (bullets, not loaded cartridges) using high pressure (instead of heat) which flows the materials at room temperature to take the shape of the cavity in a closed high-strength die. ... When you SWAGE a bullet, you expand it to a slightly larger size in a pressure-sealed die.

So, I guess for bullets such as the #801, the lead is melted, then poured/forced into a mold, and as it cools, it takes on its shape.
I need to do more reading to understand swaging better.


Finally, I don't know who to ask, to understand why the #801 rounds work in other people's Baer Premiere II gun, but not mine.
I don't need it to work with the #801, I'd just like to understand the reason it binds up, but apparently rounds with a longer face load with no problem.
Maybe tomorrow I'll call Les Baer, and see what they have to say about this.

This is the last target from today, using the Baer, with the Magnus #806 rounds.  Nothing spectacular, but on the other hand, I can't remember ever getting all my holes in the black with steel sights:

PhotoEscape wrote:Mike,

Start from checking your magazine(s).  801 is similar to H&G #130 bullet.  It is short, and hence your round's COL is in 1.15 - 1.165" range.  You might need to check magazine lips, and experiment a little bit. 

Also polish feeding ramp of the barrel, and barrel hood too.

AP

I have eight Baer magazines, one Wilson magazine, one Springfield magazine, the magazine that came with my Caspian, and an old fashioned magazine from my Combat Commander.  One after another, a long time ago, I tried all of them.  I could feed plastic Snap Caps with no problem, but none of my "dummy" #801's would cycle through it.  So I cleaned it, and put it back in the gun safe.

On a whim, last night, I took all the "trial rounds" as I was learning how to get the #806 bullets made properly, and they cycled through the Baer with no problem.  I tried some dummy rounds with a #801, and amazingly, they worked too - but this morning at the range, only the #806 rounds cycled reliably.

Maybe I'll take an #801 round, paint it with Dykem, and start feeding it through, looking for where the Dykem gets worn off.  

I bought a Wilson chamber brush - I know the chamber is clean - but I've never touched the feed ramp or the barrel hood.  I'll check those out next time I clean it.

mikemyers wrote:
I don't need it to work with the #801, I'd just like to understand the reason it binds up, but apparently rounds with a longer face load with no problem.

Mike,

Before you post something, it might be good idea to decide the level of importance and take to account that many on the forum are genuinely feel that your problem is critical.  As such folks are jumping in to offer help.  Reading afterwards that issue at hand is purely an educational is somewhat disparaging. 

With that said, respectfully I'm going to block all your future posts from appearing in my unread posts.  Please forgive me my directiveness, but I just don't have same amount of time you do to be spent on issues that has no importance.

Sincerely and respectfully,
AP

Hey Mike I did not see how much you are crimping but if you might try a little more crimp with these bullets.

Not sure how to reply.

This was the heart of the first thing I wrote in this thread:

Does anyone here know of where I might be able to buy some more, or of an appropriate (similar) bullet that might work in the Baer?  
They seem to cycle through the Baer with no problem, both indoors with my "dummy rounds" and at the range today.

The #801 doesn't work reliably, but the #806 does, possibly due to the longer nose.  That question did get answered, and I expect to be buying 1,000 or so bullets from Ian.


I don't understand what you mean by saying: many on the forum are genuinely feel that your problem is critical.


The Baer worked for about 2,000 rounds of WWB ammo.  It seems to work fine with the #806 bullets.  I was told long ago that the gun would need to go to a gunsmith to get it to work with the #801 bullets.

Maybe I'm missing something, but my question was not how to get it to work with the #801.  It was to find something that WILL work reliably with the gun.  

I apologize if I said something wrong here, but while I'd like to understand exactly why the 801 doesn't feed, I have no desire to send the gun off to get it to work with the 801 bullets.  

You wrote: Reading afterwards that issue at hand is purely an educational is somewhat disparaging. 
I can understand that, but that was NOT the issue.  The issue was finding something that WILL work, not modifying the gun to work with the 801.  Maybe I didn't make that clear enough in the original post - I thought I did, but maybe I should have made it clear that I do not want to modify my Baer.   Sorry......

troystaten wrote:Hey Mike I did not see how much you are crimping but if you might try a little more crimp with these bullets.

Both Terry Labbe, who makes the bullets, and Dave Salyer, told me the crimp should always be 0.468".  
The length for the #801 was set at 1.130"

For what it's worth, for the #806 the crimp stayed 0.468",  but the length from base to shoulder was set to 0.930".

There are a lot of things I don't yet understand, but I'm pretty good at following instructions.

From SAAMI:



If I'm seating my bullets to an OAL of 1.130", that's quite a bit less than the minimum OAL in the above drawing.

Hey Mike I have a Sayler built Springfield milspec, Kart barrel and bushing, the gun has since been re-built by a local smith (the lower link had an elongated hole where the slidestop goes through.  When I was having some issues with reliability he suggested trying a little more crimp and it really made a difference, might be worth a try.  Good luck I am sure you will get it sorted out.

take care

Would the type of lips of the magazine make a difference along with the nose length?
Lips types of GI, hybrid, or wadcutter.

troystaten wrote:Hey Mike I have a Sayler built Springfield milspec, Kart barrel and bushing, the gun has since been re-built by a local smith (the lower link had an elongated hole where the slidestop goes through.  When I was having some issues with reliability he suggested trying a little more crimp and it really made a difference, might be worth a try.  Good luck I am sure you will get it sorted out.

take care

Thanks!  Two weeks from now, I hope to be shooting Ian's Magnus #811 bullets, with no problems, and no issues.  Eventually someone will explain to me exactly why the #801 bullets didn't work in my Baer.

Back to you - what was the problem with your gun?  What was it doing wrong?  Did the tighter crimp improve it, or fix it?  Also, which bullets were you using?

Hey Mike on my 1911 there were some barrel fitting issues and it took a heavier powder charge to make it function well (4.1 grains of bulleye). The gunsmith I took it too who was trained by Bob Chow found a few things he did not like such as the barrel link having an elongated hole and how relation between the lower legs of the barrel and the lugs at the top of the barrel were (I am sure I am not using the right terms) after change the barrel link and shimmed the slots in the top of the slide where the barrel lugs lock things worked a lot better.  I was having a few hick-ups with my reloads and he told me to increase the amount of crimp and all my problems have since gone away.  I am currently using a Bayou 185 grain lead coated swc but have run magnus button nose wadcutters, Speer 200 grain lead swc's as well as Federal factory 185 grain jacketed swc and IMI 185 grain jacketed swc, all function fine.  My current load is the Bayou 185 grain SWC with 3.8 grains of bulleye and a crimp of .464-465. using an RCBS taper crimp die.  The gun has a slide mounted red dot and a 9lb spring. The recoil impulse seems to be soft and I don't think my reloads are beating up the gun.  I do put a drop of oil on the each rail of the pistol before I shoot it.  I hope this helps, my very uneducated guess would be to try a little more crimp and maybe dropping the recoil spring one pound.  I am sure a good gunsmith would be a much better source of help than me but all of this is sure interesting.

Good luck with your quest.