Grip 101 and limp wrists

First topic message reminder :

After watching the "Masters Virtual Panel Discussion" for an hour and a half last night, I finally accepted that these guys have no special ability to hold their shooting hand and gun motionless.  But as was pointed out, if the gun does move, it needs to remain parallel to the original shooting orientation.  This has been churning around in my brain since then (much longer, really).  I was trying out different ways to grip my gun at the range this morning, and for one magazine of 5 rounds everything went great.  I changed magazines without moving anything, and the next five rounds also were good.   I tried to note where all my fingers were, and how I was holding the gun, and everything else, and I noticed my right thumb was wrapped around the gun more than usual, so the end of my thumb lined up with the leading edge of the grips.  Noting all this was so I could repeat it.


I went out on my balcony this evening, just holding my hand up as if there was a gun in it, and it became obvious that there was nothing preventing my hand from twisting to the right or left at the wrist  My right wrist was like a wad of grease, and I couldn't find any motor control, muscles, whatever, to tense it up or even stiffen it slightly.  

Frustrated, on a whim, I pretended to hold the gun in my left hand, which has no idea what it's supposed to do.  Amazing, my wrist was quite a bit stiffer.  The best way to describe this, was I held out my arm/wrist in front of me, and had pivoted my wrist towards my left, so the gun was aiming somewhat to my left.  When it was like that, I found I actually COULD firm up my wrist a little - just aiming my hand that way already firmed it up.  Interesting.

So, I came indoors and held the gun in my right hand, and deliberately pivoted my wrist to my right, so the gun was now aimed a little to my right.  Even more amazingly, I found I had some kind of muscle or tendon or whatever it is, that sort of "stiffened" my wrist in that orientation - something I have never, ever, been able to do.  See photos below.

Feeling excited about this, I left my hand and wrist exactly like that, and moved the gun within my hand, pivoting it so the gun was pointing straight ahead while my wrist was "bent".  

I looked where my thumb had moved to, and it was pretty much right where my thumb was earlier today, when I actually shot a decent group.



I don't know if I've explained this well or not.  What I'm aware of, is that the way I've been shooting, there is nothing to keep my gun pointed "ahead".  I don't have any way to stiffen my wrist to keep things in place.  BUT, orienting my hand this new way, I actually DO have a way to tense up my hand/wrist so the gun is held at a specific angle - and apparently, if I hold tightly enough, it stays there.  I got ten good rounds this morning, shooting this way, but at the time, I wasn't smart enough to recognize why.  


The video session didn't directly tell me what I've just written, but it DID give me the mental tools to come up with this test and explanation.  When I picked up the gun to dry-fire a few minutes ago, while the gun wasn't fully "locked" in position, it was being held there snugly, and it was easy to keep it there, especially compared to before, when it wasn't possible.

(Don't laugh at me too hard if the above sounds totally bonkers.  I may not have the medical terms to explain properly, and if Crazy Thunder was standing next to me months or years ago, he'd probably just have moved the gun in my hands and said to "do this from now on".  Maybe.  I'll find out Monday if I'm on to something.  Or, maybe you're all gonna groan, and tell me how many years I've wasted with a bad grip.....)

Before ---  gun can is free to rotate to either the right or left:



After  ---  the gun now feels like it's held in place, no longer free to rotate to either side.

'Schaumannk', unless I've suddenly graduated to a better level, my wobble zone is still likely "the black".  If I had a time machine, and went back two months, my stated goal back then was simply to get all the holes in the black.  Dave Salyer told me I was being unrealistic.  True or not, I never gave up on that.

All ten shots were taken the same way, and took pretty much the same time.  It was much more than a one second press (deliberately) before the gun fired.  As I understand it, the point of the exercise was for me to have no idea when the gun would fire.  I tried to do it like a steel tension test, where pressure is smoothly added until it reaches a point where the gun fires.  I figure all of this was to accomplish better "trigger control".

WONDERFUL idea about taking the "extra" shot.  I remember having the same experience as you.  I'll start doing that as of tomorrow.

If CrankyThunder wants me to speed up my trigger press, I'll do so - but not until I've accomplished what he was trying to help me achieve.  No problem in doing so faster, and in my dry-firing, the dot does remain steady, but I don't want to change until Cranky thinks it's appropriate.


I've read the articles by Blankenship several times - maybe you're right, if I read it again now, I'll understand something I missed on earlier readings.  That's true about a lot of things, especially the things Cecil writes here.  Each time I read them, I find something that seems new to me....

DA/SA wrote:I've recently gone back to training with a revolver (DA) for that reason and it is working out well..........At the range with the pistol pointing safely down range...load five snap caps and a live round. spin the cylinder and lock it without looking. Proceed to dry fire Russian Roulette style. Don't stop when it goes bang, just cycle through all six and then start over. Your sight alignment and sight picture will improve and your anticipation/chicken finger will fade away. (and you'll shoot a lot of good shots!)................I can't trick myself loading a mix of live and dummy rounds in a magazine for the 1911.

I like those ideas, have sort of been doing them for a long time.  I load my revolver with two, three, or four live rounds, and leave the other chambers empty, then spin the cylinder so I have no idea what's coming up.  Great way to improve!!!!

For a 1911, load up a different number of rounds in five or six magazines, mix them up, close your eyes, and pick one at random to load into the 1911.  That was half of my battle to avoid flinching.  (The other half, which came right from the Pistol Shooter's Treasury, was to bring a box of 100 230 grain Winchester White Box ammo to the range, and shoot ALL of it.  By the time I reached the end, my hand was sore, and I no longer cared about recoil.).  End result, no more flinch.  No more blinking either.  I forgot who wrote that - I think his words were "a flinch can be cured with a box of hardball".


Admission - I love shooting revolvers, but Cranky and Dave both want me to stick to one gun as much as possible.  I'm trying to do everything they tell me, and ditto for anything Cecil writes that I understand.  The "Master's Videos" are helping to understand what those guys mean, but I'm slow to learn.

Schaumannk wrote:..........Don’t move the gun with your wrist. (Very tempting to do when the dot moves out of the black)...........

This is something I need to ask Cecil about.  
Cecil has already explained how important it is to move the gun such that any new path stays parallel to the desired path.  
That's my starting point.

I had to actually test this, to verify what I'm actually doing.  Turns out I've managed the best job I can to lock everything between the gun and my shoulder.  
The only convenient way to get the dot back where I want it is by moving my shoulder.  
That leads to the following:

• Nothing I do, other than moving two different parts of my arm, can move my gun to a different position without changing the bullet path so that it remains parallel, 
  
  
• BUT
  
  
• If I originally positioned myself such that the path from my gun to the target was in a straight line, and all those joints are tight, and something ELSE has moved the dot out of the black since then, I should correct with my shoulder joint.  I'm guessing that is the most likely thing causing the dot to have moved. 
  

If that is a valid answer, I'll continue to correct with my shoulder.
If it's not a valid answer, I'm doing things incorrectly.


So I'll come back to your question:  IF THE DOT MOVES OUT OF THE BLACK, and we know moving the wrist is not a good answer, and changing our grip is even a worse answer, how do YOU bring the dot back into the black?  Was my guess good, or is there something better.....????



(I'm writing way too much here.  Time to stop typing stuff, and go back to reading.  Sorry for writing so much.)

Mike start at the beginning, pick a comfortable stance (for me I start out bladed 90 degrees to the targets) feet are still about shoulder width apart and pointed 45 degrees outward. Grip the gun the way you always do, close your eyes raise gun to target open them and see where your dot is pointing, hopefully at the target. Now here's where you can make that adjustment. While the gun is pointed at target use your rear foot to make that adjustment. Sights right of black move rear foot to the right, sights left of black move rear foot left to get your dot in center of black. You can check it out in your house a few times with a target on the wall. Repeat this procedure until it comes up perfect, usually once or twice will do it. 
   I still do this on the range and all the time when dry firing. When I'm shooting, I still dry fire between taking my stance and the command to load. I do that before every stage in a match to confirm my process is good. After all, how do you know where your aim is when you pull the trigger. Anyway that's what I do.
Stan

To answer your question, the dot may move out of the black or it may just appear to move out of the black.    It really depends on how good your hold is.  

You can’t muscle the gun or the dot into the black.    So, the answer in slowfire is to put down the gun and start again.   

Brian Zins and some other high master shooters talk about this.   It isn’t so obvious with a .22 but they would tell you with the heavier triggered  guns, they “steer” the trigger and the shot into the x ring.   The trigger is very much a part of their shot process.  
They think they are steering because good triggering literally carries the shot into the ten ring.  
I’m not sure that they are steering at all.   I think their hold and their grip is so good, that they  aren’t moving anything but their trigger finger on the gun.   The gun is moving slightly but it is in a circle always parallel to the target like Cecil says.  And moved from the shoulder.  You are correct.  

I have watched some high master shooters who are very very good with the 22. Chuck Holt comes to mind.   I can tell you he shoots with a slight bend in his elbow.   His elbow is not locked, (and there can be long term damage to a tight grip and a locked elbow).  Still his triggering is superb, and his hold is pretty darn good too.  
The unfortunate tendency when moving the gun from the shoulder is that you can start thinking that your hold looks good, even when it is deteriorating.     And also when you lock your arm, it is hard to resist overgripping the gun.   So what you are look for is some sort of signal that tells you to put the gun down, and stop thinking that you can save a bad shot.  


If you watch international shooters like free pistol you will notice something about their grip.   The anatomical grip is formed so that the angle of the hand usually has to address the gun with a dropped wrist.   Try holding your shooting hand out palm flat, perpendicular to he ground, thumb on top,  pointed at the target.   Then drop your wrist.   Notice that your thumb  is now pointed directly at the target, and your wrist literally has no where to move.   

Bullseye unfortunately is a compromise sport.  We give quite a bit on the best wrist angle for slow fire in order to effectively recover from recoil because two thirds of our scores are from sustained fire.

chopper wrote:............. I still dry fire between taking my stance and the command to load. I do that before every stage in a match to confirm my process is good........

Stan, I was first thinking "that's what I do" until I found the above.  That is a BRILLIANT habit for me to get into.  
I will use it while following the commands in the Bullseye App on my phone.   Thank You!!!!

Schaumannk wrote:......(and there can be long term damage to a tight grip and a locked elbow).......

If what you just wrote above is true, that is the end of my locking my elbow.
If that is correct, thank you for pointing it out.

mikemyers wrote:

Schaumannk wrote:......(and there can be long term damage to a tight grip and a locked elbow).......

If what you just wrote above is true, that is the end of my locking my elbow.
If that is correct, thank you for pointing it out.

A loose elbow contributes to recoil control issues and fails to return properly.
Take a look at pictures of High Masters and Champions.
They didn’t get there with ‘chicken wings’

james r chapman wrote:

mikemyers wrote:

Schaumannk wrote:......(and there can be long term damage to a tight grip and a locked elbow).......

If what you just wrote above is true, that is the end of my locking my elbow.
If that is correct, thank you for pointing it out.

A loose elbow contributes to recoil control issues and fails to return properly.
Take a look at pictures of High Masters and Champions.
They didn’t get there with ‘chicken wings’

They are also 35 years old with massive well developed arm and shoulder muscles.  There is no direct comparison to an older person who wants to continue to shoot, and is not aiming for a spot at the AMU where when you get injured, they  continue to pay you.     If I recall Mike lists his age as 76.   Injury prevention should be at the forefront of his mind.

You can keep your arm pretty darn straight and your legs too, without locking your knees or your elbows.  Tennis elbow seems to come primarily with a heavy gun, and too tight a grip.    
“Hold the gun like you are taking a small child by the hand to cross the street.   (Not a naughty child)   James Henderson  AMU pistol clinic Camp Perry 2011.

Ok, I’ll limit my pics to age 70+ high masters in the future.

Most people shoot what's comfortable, but that may not be the best option in the long run.  So try out different positions. 

Most of the shooters that I heard complain about elbow pain, tennis elbow, etc., I've seen shooting with "bent" arms.  A "straight" (er) arm takes recoil up into the shoulder joint and muscles better (and is easier to maintain in position and reduces wobble for me).  

Bent arms require muscles and tendons around the elbow to have to do more of the work and the torsion (twisting) effect from recoil is affecting the muscles and tendons as well.  You don't have to be able to "lock" your elbow in order to  hold it straight and it seems to be easier for the "straight" arm to resist the recoil "twist" better for me.   

Anything that gets the recoil to be absorbed by more of the body is a good thing in my opinion.  Also, a majority (but not all) of the good IPSC shooters use Isosceles positions as well.  Arms straight, recoil through to the shoulders and pivot from the hips as needed.

CR10X wrote:.......A "straight" (er) arm takes recoil up into the shoulder joint and muscles better (and is easier to maintain in position and reduces wobble for me).......

For better or worse, my wobble is noticeably worse when I unlock my elbow.
Not sure what will change when I go back to shooting 45, but for now I'm almost exclusively shooting 22, with minimal recoil.

There is "locked", and "LOCKED".  I can lock my elbow as I'm holding the gun, or I can add a lot of extra force.  Hopefully just straightening out my arm all the way, so it is locked at the elbow, which reduces my wobble, is enough.

mikemyers wrote:

CR10X wrote:.......A "straight" (er) arm takes recoil up into the shoulder joint and muscles better (and is easier to maintain in position and reduces wobble for me).......

For better or worse, my wobble is noticeably worse when I unlock my elbow.
Not sure what will change when I go back to shooting 45, but for now I'm almost exclusively shooting 22, with minimal recoil.

There is "locked", and "LOCKED".  I can lock my elbow as I'm holding the gun, or I can add a lot of extra force.  Hopefully just straightening out my arm all the way, so it is locked at the elbow, which reduces my wobble, is enough.

Appearance to the eye can be deceiving.   I still think your best strategy is to spend some time with an electronic trainer to find out exactly what your hold is like under different arm tensions, and different stances and different conditions, levels of tiredness, etc.       I’ve had days when my hold looked terrible.   However when it does I  start doing things to improve it which inevitably makes things worse.  Just sayin.  

My hold looks really good too when I lock my elbow.    It isn’t though.  Doesn’t give me any more time at all than a slightly more relaxed posture.  

Too many of my older friends have had to either give up shooting for months or years, or relearn to shoot with their off hand because of elbow, and shoulder or hand injuries.   I suffered through tennis elbow for about 18 months myself.    Don’t want to go there again.

james r chapman wrote:Ok, I’ll limit my pics to age 70+ high masters in the future.

Please do, and be sure and post their  high master scores, achieved after they turned seventy.

More people would be shooting High Master scores if they spent less time on the forum and more time dry firing.

Schaumannk wrote:I still think your best strategy is to spend some time with an electronic trainer to find out exactly what your hold is like under different arm tensions, and different stances and different conditions, levels of tiredness, etc........

Well, 

• I could buy one of these:  https://scattusa.com/products/scatt-air-dry-fire-and-live-fire-system
  
• Or, I could continue to follow the advice from you and the others in the forum, and review my (paper) targets.
  

Regarding injuries, etc., what caliber guns were these people shooting?
Thank you for all the information - it's late, I'm tired, and I hope to be at the range tomorrow morning around 10am.

Maybe I missed it, but in the Masters Videos, I don't recall any of them using an electric trainer.
The person I struggled to emulate for years, Sgt. Keith Sanderson, had holding drills and dry-fire drills.
(He did hurt his hand, and had to switch for a while, but he didn't damage it from shooting.)
Check out his YouTube videos......  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfARgCqWCvQ

mikemyers wrote:

Schaumannk wrote:I still think your best strategy is to spend some time with an electronic trainer to find out exactly what your hold is like under different arm tensions, and different stances and different conditions, levels of tiredness, etc........

Well, 

• I could buy one of these:  https://scattusa.com/products/scatt-air-dry-fire-and-live-fire-system
  
• Or, I could continue to follow the advice from you and the others in the forum, and review my (paper) targets.
  

Regarding injuries, etc., what caliber guns were these people shooting?
Thank you for all the information - it's late, I'm tired, and I hope to be at the range tomorrow morning around 10am.

Maybe I missed it, but in the Masters Videos, I don't recall any of them using an electric trainer.
The person I struggled to emulate for years, Sgt. Keigh Sanderson, had holding drills and dry-fire drills.
(He did hurt his hand, and had to switch for a while, but he didn't damage it from shooting.)
Check out his YouTube videos......  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfARgCqWCvQ

I’m familiar with Keith.   He comes to our matches.

You certainly don’t have to use a SCATT or another trainer,  I just don’t know of any other way to tell what your hold is actually like at any given time, without introducing another element to the equation.    Triggering errors.   Dry firing is fine,  when you know exactly what you are doing.   But the trouble is, you get out to the range and start doing something different.

Side comment - please tell Keith how much people appreciate his videos.  When I first started going to my Bullseye club, someone pointed me at his videos.  I searched for every video I could find, played them over and over, and for a long time that was my only way of improving.  Dry Firing, and Holding.  

You're sort of right, as while I got new habits, because nobody was watching me, some later turned out to be bad habits, but this has nothing to do with the things he emphasized.  All of those seemed like the best I could find, they all made sense, and best of all, they worked.  As to dry firing errors, yep, there were lots, but people here in the forum helped me sort out many of those.  

Keith was talking to "beginners" mostly, which I was.  I wish he was here in these forums.



Meanwhile, back at our discussion, I agree with you - my shooting at the range was different than my dry-firing, especially at first, probably because I had 30 years of bad habits.  Nowadays I do both the same, and I'm almost as relaxed live firing as dry firing - probably because of the endless hours spent dry firing, and trying to be critical of what I'm doing.  Is that you in the photo?

KBarth wrote:More people would be shooting High Master scores if they spent less time on the forum and more time dry firing.

I would change the word "forum" to "computer".  

For a long time now, I spend between one and two hours every day dry-firing.  

I've also been following Keith's advice (that seemed backwards to me long ago) that most of my work, and effort, and thought, and energy, went into dry-firing.  As he suggested, when I got to the range, what I was doing was trying what I had learned from dry-firing.  

Dry-firing was "learning" (and trying to form good habits).  Live-firing was "practicing what I learned while dry-firing".  


(Hopefully the forum is still helping me learn good habits, and correcting bad habits.  That's why the forum is necessary, at least for me.)

I'm not advocating that everybody shoot with a straight arm.  Hell, do what makes you happy.  I am saying how I approached the issue and determined what seems the help me the most.  

By the way, the following may feel entirely different if you have any rotator cuff  / scapula tendon issues [been there, done that, recovered and got better].  And this issue, in my opinion, is  why some shooters may do better with "bent" arms than having a straight arm and more support from the shoulder (and a really good indicator that the rotator cuff might need some attention). 

But, that being said, how about trying this and see how it feels?

Stand a couple of feet from a wall in your "normal" bullseye stance.  Lean forward until you are supporting your weight against the forward face of your clenched fist with a straight arm.  

Feel the body weight being taken up through the wrist joint, elbow joint and into the shoulder joint.  [Kinda like "bone on bone" support that your feet, shins, knees, and hips should feel when in the standing position, feels like the bones are supporting the stance, not the muscles.]  You will notice that the muscles and tendons in the forearm and upper arm are not doing much work and they are not in a position of stress or tension to any large degree. All the joints from the shoulder forward should feel like they are taking up the weight (force) as you lean into the wall.  And the whole appendage feels likes its operating as a unit ;and for me the shoulder muscles are doing most of the actual position work. 

Then slowly bend your arm at the elbow (bent arm position).  Notice the muscles and tendons of the forearm (and bicep and even wrist) are now doing a lot more work and have more tension to maintain the position.  And if you feel closely, you will notice most of the feeling / pressure in the forearm is almost exactly where all those shooters with "tennis elbow" are putting the wraps to reduce the pain.

Now instead of static weight, imagine what happens during recoil with additional torsion effect?  Now, some people may seem to wobble less with a "bent" arm, but what about the reaction(s) to and anticipation of the forces just after the shot.  Remember, we're also looking to reduce stress and feelings that can contribute to hesitation and anticipation as well.  Sometimes, I think a lot of "flinching" and "jerking" comes from the body's anticipation of the reaction to recoil. If it hurts or feels uncomfortable when we shoot, the brain will compensate in some way.  

And the same thing probably happens to shooter with the aforementioned rotator cuff issues, they are trying to reduce the pain / uncomfortable tension issues that distract from the shot process and introduce anticipation that results in "flinching" or "jerking" by bending the arm some.

But my point is don't assume, try something different long enough to understand it then you will have a better idea of your options and results that work best for you.

CR

mikemyers wrote:Side comment - please tell Keith how much people appreciate his videos.  When I first started going to my Bullseye club, someone pointed me at his videos.  I searched for every video I could find, played them over and over, and for a long time that was my only way of improving.  Dry Firing, and Holding.  

You're sort of right, as while I got new habits, because nobody was watching me, some later turned out to be bad habits, but this has nothing to do with the things he emphasized.  All of those seemed like the best I could find, they all made sense, and best of all, they worked.  As to dry firing errors, yep, there were lots, but people here in the forum helped me sort out many of those.  

Keith was talking to "beginners" mostly, which I was.  I wish he was here in these forums.



Meanwhile, back at our discussion, I agree with you - my shooting at the range was different than my dry-firing, especially at first, probably because I had 30 years of bad habits.  Nowadays I do both the same, and I'm almost as relaxed live firing as dry firing - probably because of the endless hours spent dry firing, and trying to be critical of what I'm doing.  Is that you in the photo?

No,  that is Nick Mowrer.   Another very fine Olympic shooter.

I don’t think you can go wrong by listening to Keith.  He is a very fine shooter, and extremely intelligent about the mechanics.  This is not true of a lot of very good shooters.  They can do, but they can’t explain exactly how.  

Just be aware that an older body is probably not going to take the hours and hours of training that Kieth puts in without something breaking down.

Hmm, the only videos I searched out, along with articles, were by Keith.  I'm thinking now of his Army videos.  I don't know anything (yet) about "Nick Mowrer".

I tried Keith's holding drills, holding up a 1911 with lead filled barrel and also a wrist weight.  At some point, something in my arm started to feel sore, so I stopped for a while.  The discomfort went away.  All the time and effort following Keith's advice eventually kicked in.  

(At the time, quite a few years ago, I only shot two-handed.  I decided I needed to learn how to shoot one handed, and for me, the first time I picked up my Les Baer Premiere II with one hand, I couldn't even hold it up for 20 to 30 seconds.)


Time to put away the computer, and try what Cecil wrote........

CR10X wrote:.......Stand a couple of feet from a wall in your "normal" bullseye stance.  Lean forward until you are supporting your weight against the forward face of your clenched fist with a straight arm...........Feel the body weight being taken up through the wrist joint, elbow joint and into the shoulder joint.  [Kinda like "bone on bone" support that your feet, shins, knees, and hips should feel when in the standing position, feels like the bones are supporting the stance, not the muscles.]  You will notice that the muscles and tendons in the forearm and upper arm are not doing much work and they are not in a position of stress or tension to any large degree. All the joints from the shoulder forward should feel like they are taking up the weight (force) as you lean into the wall.  And the whole appendage feels likes its operating as a unit ......

Interesting test.   I came away with two thoughts.

First, my fingers started to hurt, being pressed into the wall.  (Which has nothing whatever to do with what you're trying to show me - it's just that the outside of my fingers aren't used to be supporting that much force.)

Second, as you put it, the whole body structure from hands to feet started to feel like a single "unit".

Excluding my fingers, it was all very comfortable.  No "flexing", just a solid assembly of body parts connecting my fingers to my feet.
I could even say it was "relaxing".     :-)

I have been reading this topic and while there are many interesting views may I suggest a spot of shooting with an air pistol to develop a better Follow Through. The relatively slower speed of the pellet requires greater emphasis on follow through and even if the wrist, arm, shooter system is perfectly within the aiming area, the follow through will ensure the bullet strikes exactly where the barrel was pointing when the trigger was released.