Seating die for lead bullets

A problem I have always had is when I seat lead bullets in my Dillon 650 I always get a small ring of lead at the case mouth when the bullet is fully seated to the proper depth.  This ring of lead happens before I crimp .   I use a Redding seating die with a SWC stem but I have tried RCBS seating die along with a Lee and have had the same results, I have to run my thumb nail around the case mouth to remove the ring of lead after the crimp station. Along with having to do this I also get a huge amount of lead jammed up in the seating die from this ring of lead coming off and getting stuck between the die body and the seating stem itself.  The problem from what I can surmise is, even though I bell the case mouth sufficiently in the powder drop station the seating die body starts to remove that bell and squeezes the case mouth down to small a diameter for lead bullets.  When I try to back out the seating die so the taper doesn't squeeze down the bell of the case mouth so much to cause the lead ring then I don't have sufficient length on the bullet stem to seat the bullet to the proper depth.   Happens with all makes of brass, I mostly shoot Federal brass but I have tried Star-Line and Winchester brass with similar results so it's not the brass thickness that's causing this problem. 

Has anyone else had this problem and if so how did you cure it ? I am now trying a seating die body from a 45/70 die set with the 45 ACP SWC seating stem in it.  This has cured the ring of lead when seating but this seems like a drastic measure to take to get clean ammo and I question if the bullets are being seated straight with this method.

Any suggestions ?

Virgil

If you are using the standard Dillon expander/powder funnel, I would recommend an aftermarket expander such as from PhotoEscape.

The Dillon expander is a bit undersize for lead projectiles.

I use the PhotoEscape expander. When to it a few years ago and it works great.  Still get the lead ring even with it.

Virgil

Virgil you have got to try adding more flair. It will stop your problem if your expander won’t do it then get a expansion die

James Hensler wrote:Virgil you have got to try adding more flair. It will stop your problem if your expander won’t do it then get a expansion die

It's not the flair/belling of the mouth that is the problem.  The problem is even though the flair/bell is about 3/64th of an inch on either side of the bullet to case mouth measurement  (or even if I do more) it's the seating die body squeezing the flair/bell out as the press ram is moving up BEFORE the bullet is fully seated. Every seating die I have measured has a tapered inside dimension and it's this tapering down that I have a problem with, it seems to much for lead bullets.  Even if I flair/bell to the extreme and can seat the bullet to within 1/16 on an inch by hand the seating die body will still squeeze the case mouth down before the bullet is fully seated and I will get a ring of lead at the case mouth BEFORE crimping.  By using the 45/70 seating die body in conjunction with a 45 ACP seating stem designed for SWC's I have eliminated the ring of lead at the case mouth.  In my reasoning this means that I have sufficient flair/belling of the case mouth and by using this die who's body has an inside diameter of .481" I have eliminated the ring of lead during seating because the die body is NOT squeezing down the case mouth as much as the 45 ACP seating die before being fully seated because the tapered inside dimension is less than with a 45 ACP seating die. I have tried using a 45 Long Colt seating die but the newer dies are designed for bullets that are .451-.452 so I got the same results as when using the 45 ACP die. 
Sadly it seems that all seating dies are designed to remove the flair/bell to the extreme so that when it cartridge is moved to the next station the crimp die has an easier time crimping. This works well with jacketed bullets but seems a bit problematic with lead, at least for me.

Virgil

Back your seating die out some then re-adjust your seating stem.. I loaded a ton of lubed bullets in my 550 with dillon dies and didn't have  this issue unless the bullet was. Wanted prior to seating.

I use Dillon 45acp dies in my Hornady LNL AP and don't have shaving issues unless my flare is not enough. Perhaps get one of AP's expanders if the one supplied by Dillon isn't doing the trick.

jglenn21 wrote:Back your seating die out some then re-adjust your seating stem.. I loaded a ton of lubed bullets in my 550 with dillon dies and didn't have  this issue unless the bullet was. Wanted prior to seating.

Seating stem isn't long enough to do that. If I back out the die body the seating stem bottoms out on the die body and I can't seat the bullet to the proper length.

Virgil

zanemoseley wrote:I use Dillon 45acp dies in my Hornady LNL AP and don't have shaving issues unless my flare is not enough. Perhaps get one of AP's expanders if the one supplied by Dillon isn't doing the trick.

It's not the flare of the case mouth that's the issue, it's the taper in the seating die body. If I flared the case mouth to 50 caliber (an exaggeration) the taper in the seating die body would still reduce the case mouth to much before the bullet is fully seated and cause the shaving of lead on the front driving band.    All seating die bodies are tapered and swage down the flare of the case mouth almost straight so the bullet can be crimped at the next stage. The problem I'm having is the seating stem in the die isn't long enough to seat the bullet in the case before the taper portion of the die body gets to narrow and then causes a shaving of lead at the very edge case mouth and front driving band of the bullet.  If I back out the seating die 1/8" then I don't get the lead shaving but then I cannot turn the seating stem down far enough to seat the bullet to the proper length.  It's a catch 22 with all the different dies I have tried.  


Virgil

Try a 45 long Colt seating die.

I had a similar issue with .38 Spec ad Lee dies. After it about drove me nuts I sent the seating die back to Lee for inspection as I thought that it might just be out of spec. Lee said that there was nothing wrong with my seating die and that the issue was my seating stem improperly aligning the projectile. Winning to try anything at that point, I made a new seating stem to perfectly fit the bullet and while I was at it, I re-aligned the platform on my Dillon 650 and have never seen shaving again.

YMMV!

So, my Redding seating die would probably do the same thing. A flared case will start to drag with about a 1/2" sticking out of the die.

I use it as a crimp die for jacketed loads now, after getting a micrometer seater. I have a taper crimp die set deeper for cast.

If I take the lock ring off the seating stem and screw it all the way into the die, a loaded SWC, already crimped, will drop in and out. I only have the RN stem for the die, so YMMV.

You might try that, and adjust seating depth with the setting of the die in the press.

Otherwise, I can recommend the micrometer seater. A flared case drops into mine farther than a shell holder would push it. It's designed to not crimp at all.

I can’t find it but someone else had this issue and finally decided he would open up his seating die a bit. I know exactly what you are talking about as my Dillon dies do the same thing for some reason for .45

Virgil, I wonder if your Redding die is one of their progressive dies, I think they are chamfered to allow easy use.
Stan

Virgil Kane wrote:

jglenn21 wrote:Back your seating die out some then re-adjust your seating stem.. I loaded a ton of lubed bullets in my 550 with dillon dies and didn't have  this issue unless the bullet was. Wanted prior to seating.

Seating stem isn't long enough to do that. If I back out the die body the seating stem bottoms out on the die body and I can't seat the bullet to the proper length.

Virgil

Change brand of seating die

WesG wrote:If I take the lock ring off the seating stem and screw it all the way into the die, a loaded SWC, already crimped, will drop in and out. I only have the RN stem for the die, so YMMV.

You might try that, and adjust seating depth with the setting of the die in the press.

Me thinks your on to something.  I will take the locking ring off the seating stem and turn it all the way down until it bottoms out and use the threads on the die body to adjust the seating depth of the bullet.  Kind of backasswards but I'm betting that would work.  My fear was always leaving the locking ring off the seating stem and it moving during reloading so I always tried to use the locking ring even if only holding by a thread or two.  If I bottom the seating stem all the way and snug it up it shouldn't go anywhere.
Great idea, thanks !

Virgil

Cut about a 1/4 inch off the end of the seating stem, cut a slot for a small screw driver, then lock it with a set screw on top.

I would try this https://www.uniquetek.com/product/T1740

.45 HTC Powder Funnel

The Redding micrometer seating die is for jacket bullets only, according to Redding, I called and talked to them about this very issue. I solved the lead ring problem by using a 45 Colt sizing die, standard Dillon expander, Dillon seater with a stem for seating on the SWC ledge. This works every time.

You'll need to increase the flare.
Also make sure your placing bullet squarely on case mouth.

mhayford45 wrote:The Redding micrometer seating die is for jacket bullets only

 That may be, but the only issue I've had with mine is excess lube on bullets loading it up eventually, changing the seating depth. But that happens with a conventional die as well. Coated bullets run through the same as jacketed.

A .452 gauge pin rattles around radially when the die is set for a SWC. No surprise, the seating stem measures .454, so there's no way a cast bullet is getting sized down by the die to begin with.

These aren't the same as the Redding rifle dies, which align the case and bullet in a bored sleeve, and raise the entire assy up to the seating stem, which is also a tight fit.

IMO, the only thing these really add to the seating equation is the micrometer adjustment. And the option for a quick change of stems. Custom stems are less trouble to make as well, no threading required.

The spring loading of the stem might help with getting the bullet aligned in the early stages, but without having it all in a fitted sleeve we're still at the mercy of squareness of the case head, press alignment, flex in the shell plate*, etc. But maybe some extra flare on the case to make it a snug fit in the die would be beneficial. Assuming the case clearance bore is concentric with the seating stem. It likely is.

The biggest improvement I've seen is the PE HTC expander, which allows the bullet to seat to near full depth with light pressure. And has almost completely eliminated the excess lube problem.

* I've found a small difference in seating depth depending on whether the press (LNL AP) is fully 'loaded' vs only having a rd in the seating position. And a shooter at a local match noted the same thing. I think it may have been one of our favorite bullet makers ...

You are on the right track to seat the lead bullet to its full depth before crimping the brass. The crimp will then need to be removed with a taper crimp die in a separate step. I know more work.
 Another item that may indirectly help is to modify your seating stem. Chuck the stem up in a drill and remove any material in the seating stem that touches the bullet nose. Leave a rim on the bottom that catches the shoulder of the 200 G. SWC ( between the nose of the bullet and the OD of the bullet.) This aligns the bullet quicker and pushes the bullet into the case along the circumference of the bullet. This will allow the least amount of case flair to seat the bullet without shaving lead.
 Taper crimping usually increases accuracy.

Not wanting to put a damper on this conversation, but the author of the original posting passed away a week ago. He was hunting deer with his two sons in downstate Illinois and died of natural causes in the tree stand. Visitation and services were this past weekend. I can say as a friend and fellow teammate of his on a local bullseye league that he lived life all the time. He was certainly not one to sit still and had many interests including playing league baseball in his 60's. He was a straight shooter in the life sense and did not abide BS. You knew where you stood with him, good or bad. He will be missed by many.

RIP.

That is very sad news. My condolences to those who knew him personally.