Help with Timed and Rapid in 45

Hi All,

I was wondering if there are some known drills or exercises to do at home that would help with timed and rapid in the 45 stage.  That seems to be where I am losing most of my points.  The trouble is recoil anticipation, and getting back onto target during a series of shots.  I can usually get >95 in those stages with the 22, and >92 in the 38 special.  I average >86 with 45.  Given that there are 6 stages in timed and rapid in 45 there is a lot of potential to gain points if I get this issue resolved.

I dry fire a bit at home, but I don't think more will help with this.  The dry fire practice has helped with the slow fire. The issues I have are related to the recoil and my getting flustered in getting back on target.

Best,

Joe

Shoot 2 shot drills a lot.  Stick up 4 to 6 repair centers and shoot 20 shots in two shot drills per center.  Then score.   Try to get.  Start each with 22 for 2 centers then switch to 45.

Can't shoot 2 shot drills at your house. My biggest hurdle for getting to master was recoil anticipation. The only thing that really worked was time on task getting rounds down range. Use a pair of Bluetooth speakers with a bullseye command app to practice. I would typically shoot only about 40-50 slow fire for every 100-150 rounds of timed and rapid fire. You can also use ball and dummy drills to show you what you're doing.

Load up the lightest recoiling load your gun will cycle. Don't worry about accuracy. Use these light loads to practice. You need to get to be able to totally control your gun not have the gun control you. Once you get to this point you can start to increase the load and still keep control.

You mention shooting 38, pause that until you have your 45 where you want it. Take the time you would put shooting your 38 into your 45. Two shoot drills and ball and dummy drills as mentioned are great to work out issues.

Recoil anticipation, all guns recoil. Learning to accept this helps a ton, you don’t want to focus on thoughts like “the recoil of this shot will make the next shot harder”, that will make the problem worse.
Proper and consistent stance can help mitigate issues with recoil recovery, one thing that I commonly see during a string of fire is people start to slowly lean back away from the target, you do not want to do this.

Granted my advice here on stance is a shot in the dark to what may be going on in your case, but it is hard to say without watching you shoot.

I heard of a technique where you attach a sting onto your gun. Then "set" for a shot, i.e. pull the hammer back.  You pull the string with your left hand to simulate the first shot, then follow-up with the trigger pull for the "set" pistol.  This lets you practice the process of a follow-up shot.  Does this seem legit?  Has anyone tried it?

I can only make it to the range for 1 hour a week.  And that is somewhat in jeopardy because we just had our second son.  Need to help with the family. Trying to still figure out how to make it to matches and practice.  A little more of a challenge now.

Invest in a good 10m air pistol and set up a range in your house if you can, my basement comes in handy for that. Almost no recoil but will help with fundamentals and can shoot some after work.

I have had some trouble along these lines but figured things out in a match yesterday. My good strings had to do with getting my first shot off well, and you can certainly do that well at home with one shot drills with range commands. The second thing that was connected with good strings was keeping the trigger moving. Last was front sight. If the sights are aligned and remotely the around 6oc hold, it seems to be a 10. Just a smidge off and it's in the white. Someone this weekend described focusing on the front sight is always an evolving thing. If you thing you're focused on the front sight, redouble your efforts. You'll find a whole new level every time.

Sounds like your issue is getting back on target after a shot.

Match your recoil spring to your load - the slide should not bottom out "hard" on the frame which breaks your wrist. Buy a spring set and change out until it stops feeding and then back off 1lb. Your wrist wont break and the extra force of going into battery actually puts you back on target (if you don't limp wrist).

Learn to keep your finger on the trigger after each T&R shot and slowly let it out until you feel the sear re-engage. Lifting your finger off the trigger after each shot and having to find the sweet spot again is disasterous, as you end up spraying all over the target. 

You can have someone "cell phone video" you as you shoot T&R to review at the range and study later.

Build a simple turning target (Ed Hall has plans on his website) and practice first shot drills (with an air pistol in your basement) and take it to the range when training on live fire. Training on stationary targets isn't the same as training on turning targets.

Get shooters at your range to conduct Turing Target Training sessions. I train shooters at our monthly 3 hour turning target practice to fire the first RF shot as the targets are turning - round goes off as the target finishes facing. You now have 10 seconds for 4 shots easy shots.

Dryfire for a 5 -10 minute period everyday. When watching TV hold a 1911 , so your grip and forearm get a memory. This makes a big difference as it always feels right. Use a grip squeezer while driving to work.

Have fun.

You need to learn to do one of
Focus on sight picture and let triggering be automatic
or
Focus on triggering and let sight picture be automatic. 

You can't do both.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  This is so true, for me anyway.  If I focus on the sight picture-where the dot is on the target- I can get super hesitant on the trigger, especially on rapid fire.  So my focus is pressure increase on the trigger, sight pic is secondary.  And lately my slow fire is better if I'm not so sight focused.  Also, in timed fire, there is more than enough time to fire and recover and do it again.  It is seldom anyone runs out of time in TF, even if it seems each shot is taking a really long time.  I do 2 shot drills and other stuff too, but nothing simulates RF like actually shooting a string of RF, or several.
Kurt

The old saying of being knee deep in brass before being comfortable
with a 45 has a lot of wisdom.
The shot process is the same for all pistols.
The variables as I see them for me have been the triggers are very different on my three pistols.
The Pardini is adjustable every way possible.
My 52 is a sweet trigger with no creep and very little if any over travel.
My trigger on the 45 1911 is good but not great. Set at 3.5 Lbs. it has a very slight amount of creep.
I have been working on getting the trigger part of the process ingrained into my subconscious muscle memory
and am making steady progress.
This is what is working FOR ME and if you have the ability to take a shot and deduce what 
effected that shot to hit where it did you are on the right path.
If you don't, you need to slow down and concentrate on the cause and affect of the shot process.
Again, I am an expert and will defer to masters and high masters for more in depth advise.
This process as I described is what seems to be working for me and the progress is slow 
but in the correct direction.
I am not up to my knees in brass yet!

Only practice rapid fire. Rapid fire is a race between the sights and the trigger. Get the sights back on target as fast as possible. Trigger pull should start before the sight picture is perfect. Timed fire is just rapid fire with a little more time to settle the sights. It doesn't need to be practiced separately. 

2 Shot drills are good. The second shot should be complete in 3.5-4 seconds.

The Stair Step Drill (AKA Progression Drill) is also good

1. Choose a ring on the target that you can keep all shots in on a good string. Given what you are saying I would start with the 9 ring then if that is too easy move to inside the 9 ring (shot not touching the ring)
   
2. Go through the commands including raising and settling then take 1 shot on target using the 2 second file from MP3_Drills
   
3. If the shot is within your chosen ring and before the buzzer (i.e. "good") then repeat #3 until all five shots are taken
   
4. If all five shots are good then add a round and take 2 shots using the 4 second file, repeating 5 times
   
5. At each step if all 5 strings are good then add one round to the string and add 2 seconds to the time allowed, if any of the shots are outside or late then subtract one round and start over at the next lower step
   
6. When you get to 5 rounds 5 times in a row Congratulations! That Is A Terrific Accomplishment! Think about how you are recovering, aligning and pulling the trigger. Write it down, study it and visualize it so you can let it happen every time 
   

I have some MP3 drill commands with different times. Download and unzip MP3_Drills.zip available by clicking here.

Do one shot drills.  Put a round in the chamber and drop the magazine.  This keeps the slide from locking back and allows you to dry fire the second shot.

Schaumannk wrote:Do one shot drills.  Put a round in the chamber and drop the magazine.  This keeps the slide from locking back and allows you to dry fire the second shot.

Sounds perfect for a 1911 conversion too!!!

Have you tried to dryfire starting with the pistol in the recoil position? You should have a fairly good idea where the 45 recoils. Start with the 45 up in that position and bring it into your sight picture while aligning the sights and taking up trigger slack, i.e. getting that finger moving. I created a rhythm but others have said not to but it worked for me. You have about 2 seconds to break a shot for rapid success. I used to use the same rhythm for timed and rapid I just made sure to break the first shot immediately in rapid. Once you get used to bringing it back into sight alignment and sight picture simultaneously you will realize how much time you have to settle and let it go off.
There are some coaches that have a newer shooter dryfire after a slow fire shot in order to have the shooter drive the pistol back down into sight alignment and sight picture to help with T&R. The processes for slow, timed, rapid should be similar and then rapid isn't such a race.

Schaumannk wrote:Do one shot drills.  Put a round in the chamber and drop the magazine.  This keeps the slide from locking back and allows you to dry fire the second shot.

I've always heard dropping the slide freely on an empty 1911 isn't good for it, especially well fit target 1911's.

I've heard a number of things along those lines too. I haven't been shooting bullseye seriously for very long, but I bet someone that did that drill to the point it messed up the gun would be good enough to see the difference in the new gun and take advantage.

Same as I've heard cocking the hammer while dry firing will ruin a trigger job. Do that until you might ruin it and I'd bet that amount of dry firing would get you to High Master.

zanemoseley wrote:

Schaumannk wrote:Do one shot drills.  Put a round in the chamber and drop the magazine.  This keeps the slide from locking back and allows you to dry fire the second shot.

I've always heard dropping the slide freely on an empty 1911 isn't good for it, especially well fit target 1911's.

Not sure that is what is happening here.   I don’t suggest dropping the slide on an empty chamber.  I suggested putting a round in the chamber with the magazine, then dropping the magazine after the round is seated.  Firing the one round will recock the hammer, at which point your stay on target and dry fire the second shot.

After the live round is fired and ejected, the slide will slam shut on an empty chamber with the magazine removed.

DA/SA wrote:After the live round is fired and ejected, the slide will slam shut on an empty chamber with the magazine removed.

If you are really concerned about this, load a dummy round first, and then you will dry fire the second shot with the dummy round in the chamber.  No need to drop the magazine at all.

Much better plan!