What are you doing to improve and is it working?

First topic message reminder :

Are you going through the motions, or are you taking steps to improve your shooting? 

If your taking steps to improve and have had success, what did you do and how are you measuring your success?

1) improved scores?
2) tighter groups?
3) more consistent?
4) improving with the 45?
5) improved performance?

Not all improvements have direct score improvements immediately. Your groups could be improving but you're still trying to figure out how to get that group into the 10 ring, etc. Learning how to grip more consistently. Learning to finesse the trigger..........................

Share your POSITIVE improvements!

Ed Hall wrote:

JHHolliday wrote:For me this this "state" only occurs by accident, randomly, and I'm not sure how to make it happen. Maybe after 10,000 hours of mindful practice the subconscious figures out what to do 

Actually, the best results are when the conscious can let the subconscious learn and perform.  Some of the trouble is that when the subconscious performs well, the conscious tries to make it even better, and when the subconscious performs below expectations, due to the learning curve, the conscious "knows" it can do better.  The optimum is for the conscious to tell the subconscious what it wants and then get out of the way.

Sounds eerily like marriage.

Joking aside, is this communication between conscious and subconscious like a discussion in the kitchen over breakfast? More of a command? A honey-do list left on the refrigerator?  Maybe a polite suggestion like my wife gives me “Honey, do you want to water the lawn today?”  Personal to each high master shooter?

I’ve finally gotten to where I know that I know how to shoot good shots, but when im not, I’m getting a bit frustrated. And it’s time to put the gun down, back away from the bench, and sit on a stool and think.

Rod as much as I don't like to disturb myself and write down notes, it's a good idea for me to. I like to note how long I can shoot 10s and some 9s before I fall off. That's when I find out I'm losing my attentiveness, my focus and shooting the best I can give to each shot.
 I try to correct the focus, but if that seems futile I'll practice something else like 1-shot drill or just dry-fire for a while. I'll return to what I was doing originally but if it's not coming back maybe it's time to go home and practice another day.
 I like to keep my practice sessions around an hour to an hour and a half. I will practice 900s a week or two before a match to help with endurance and focus. I haven't been shooting that many 2700s the past couple of years, seems like it takes a couple of days to recuperate from the drive and the match anymore.
 Good luck to you, and when you ask for help on the forum, it also helps me too. 
 Thanks to all who contribute.
Stan

“What are you doing?” -  Everything advised by the current and past, accomplished shooters on this forum; have one objective only for each range session, take extensive notes, have and write down your shot plan, evaluate every shot fired, visualize, reverse, continuously challenge yourself after the shot or string; particularly what your eye saw, what trigger finger felt, whether you followed through, and what was going through your brain up to the release.  I did none of this for twenty years and stayed at the SS level.  In nine months of the rigor mentioned above, expert scores.  I'f Jon had also asked “What was the most important discovery?” I would say that no description from any source has ever emphasized enough how intense your concentration needs to be on the front sight with almost complete disregard, once you settle in you hold area, for anything else.  Extremely difficult (for me) to develop but the closeness of the bullet holes, and accuracy of your call, are scary impressive when done right (Which currently I can do eight out of ten times as you can see in my profile pic.:)  It was near to a spiritual event when I discovered how I could trust everything as long as I put a surgeons attention on that blade, and everything dumps in to the ten ring. That is of course an oversimplification since consistency of everything mechanical is important. 
I just thought this needed mentioning since, as I say, for me at least, every written description of what I’ve discovered I really need to do regarding front sight focus, does not do justice to what is really required; nothing in Yuryev’s book, not in The Pistol Shooter’s Treasury. I wonder if it simply needed to be a personal journey.

I feel like I'm diverging from the OP's intent, but this is not my intent.

You tell your subconscious what you want by seeking it, visualizing it and celebrating it.  This is done through setting goals*, focusing on the positive (letting lesser results fade from memory) and reviewing accomplishments.  The subconscious picks up cues from the conscious focus.  That's why you can get more fliers if you get too upset with a single one, or from thoughts like, "I just can't clean a target today!"  Instead try picturing a pinwheel X or an odd shape pattern in the ten.

* Be careful of goals.  I have found that when I focused on goals, it actually held me back when I closed in on them.  Personally, I believe you should keep your focus past your goals.  If you're closing in on a new class, look past that class.  If you're closing in on 2600, look toward 2610 or HM (2619).

Ed Hall wrote:...
You tell your subconscious what you want ...

One thing I'm trying this week is every time I shoot an x on my scatt trainer I eat a m&m immediately. If my inner cave man self won't listen to reason we'll see if he understands the taste of candy.

Obviously this is not a good idea at the range or even with air pistol for lead concerns.

Many suns ago I asked a question.  The resulting discussion was terrific.  I called the archiving file....


Seeking Zin......


I'd like to have a talk again about converting your conscious shooting efforts into subconscious.


As you train and drill in the conscious on trigger, hold, or eye discipline, and try to eliminate them
from conscious thought, what is your last point of conscious attention that can still bring a good shot together?


What is the one last conscious thought you can keep that does actually help channel the subconscious shot? Jack H




Jack, Excellent question.....been awhile since someone asked a shooting question.

If you are having a conscious thought in the last second before you shoot, then your subconscious mind is not yet been "freed" to take over and act. You need 3 seconds of quiet mind before the subconscious is asked to perform what the conscious has asked of it. Your last conscious thought should be one of the two most important fundamentals.....sight alignment or trigger control. Which ever is the least automatic for you should get your conscious mind's last attention and then go quiet for the subconscious to take over. Not that I'm so smart, I learned the 3 second "rule" from Jan Brundin. Ron S


I needed to shoot many hundred perfect shots before I noticed that I was doing it without thinking about it. This happened to me in 1970 while I was shooting on my High School Rifle Team. Until a few years ago it was a mystery to me just how and why this happened. It is not something easily
understood by means of logic. Perhaps one of those wise old sayings will help:
(crudely paraphrased) A man could chase a cat around for hours without catching it but sit quietly and the cat will jump up into your lap.


~Trying~ to shoot with subconscious control will bring only frustration and failure.


I try to have nothing in my mind when shooting. The absence of words in my thoughts seem to be especially important to me. Think in pictures instead of words. Visualize the sights in the perfect
position when the pistol fires. The trigger must be ignored as long as the sights are not disturbed by the trigger. This is often described as a race to get the sights right before the weapon fires.


It works the other way too; The sights must be ignored as long as the trigger pull is smooth and straight (notice I did not say it should be a slow pull). I seem to recall that Zins concentrates on the trigger. Depends on which one needs your total concentration.


You are not actually ignoring either of the fundamentals, the subconscious takes over the part you are not concentrating on.


I play a few seconds of instrumental music in my head to help get rid of the voices when I insist on nagging myself. I do not try to rid myself of the extraneous thoughts I simply distract myself with something unrelated to shooting. Preparation helps too. I sit and think about any and everything that might drift into my mind and I think about it however long it takes to solve the problem or become comfortable with the fact that I cannot do anything about it. This really helps cut down on the random thoughts that will distract me while I am attempting to concentrate on the task at hand.


Zen, on the other hand, is dangerous for competitors. Zen does this by not caring about the outcome (score) but only about the act of shooting. Many top shooters have "burned out" because they no longer care about the competition between shooters. Without Zen I probably would have never understood what was happening but now I do not care much about matches. I will get back to you when I figure out how to keep the cake and eat it too!


This is not the secret shortcut for the apprentice to suddenly begin shooting High Master scores. You MUST get all the fundamentals and the details correct first. Remember that a flinch is also
subconscious! Bob Fleming


Hi Jack, As the New Year approaches I've been changing my thoughts on training the subconscious. Actually, this has been happening for a little while, but I haven't put much of this new concept to words yet. My previous belief centered around the idea of creating a set of steps to practice until they are ingrained and can be left to the subconscious to perform as we taught.


My current belief is that this procedure is actually limiting the subconscious in its capability. It's like your boss telling you what he wants done and then telling you how he wants each step performed. A result can be achieved, but there can be no advancement over what the boss knows. In a way, the conscious developing a routine and then forcing it onto the subconscious is providing a way for the conscious to still be in control. It is also telling the subconscious not to stray from the provided course.


So my thoughts now go to the idea of giving the subconscious more latitude and tasking it with finding the way. It order for this to work the conscious needs to be able to let go of the process and become the observer we've addressed before. The conscious also has to provide the goal information through visualization so that the subconscious knows where you want to go. The conscious then provides feedback of how the experimentation of the subconscious is proceeding by being the observer in the process. The subconscious performs all the activities to prove or disprove what it tries. The conscious refrains from judgment and lets the subconscious judge the value of the intricate actions.


This new concept does not disagree with earlier thoughts. It actually explains why we have some of those moments when we get mixed up, everything happens on its own and we find a pleasant surprise when the target faces for scoring. It also ties in to the fact that we can improve by shooting without actually following a training schedule. Perhaps it even explains those "naturals" a bit more. You might remember my contention that "naturals" aren't alien, and the way can be learned by those that aren't "naturals." I've always put forth that it is in the attitude that these individuals excel. Perhaps a big part of that confidence they display is in the ability to turn the important stuff over to the subconscious.


So where am I going with all this? I'm developing the idea that instead of training the subconscious to perform my consciously developed routines, I should simply tell my subconscious what I want and let it determine the way. In order to see this through, I must let the subconscious find out what happens when the trigger is activated in all the little ways it can be and take that all the way to letting my subconscious determine all the aspects through experimentation. I must become the true conscious observer and let the subconscious decide the training. Perhaps, more to follow... Take Care, Ed Hall




I hear you Ed and think you are right on. And yes. Follow up.
The biggest obstacle then is to get into a mental state free of dirty laundry. If you know what I mean.

LtC Miller always said "trigger control, sight alignment, and an empty mind". One would think the
empty mind part is easy, but it is the harder of the three. (Although an empty mind might be easy for some people:)


Learn the basics. Learn the goal. Learn the simplest way to present the goal to the subconscious sans detail. The subconscious is probably kind of mixed up if you give it too much detail. I think there is a simple single key for the subconscious to work off of. Give it that key, and turn it loose. Of course you have to be prepared first to a certain level before you can let it go.
Now at what level of shooting do you think these deep ideas really become critical?
Taking care, Jack H




Jack.....In slow fire I just observe the dot. In rapid I just say to myself , "smooth on the trigger".
In timed I try to cherry pick and that doesn't work! :-( Dave




The biggest obstacle then is to get into a mental state free of dirty laundry.


This is where I like what Bob Fleming wrote:
"Preparation helps too. I sit and think about any and everything that might drift into my mind and I think about it however long it takes to solve the problem or become comfortable with the fact that I cannot do anything about it. This really helps cut down on the random thoughts that will distract me while I am attempting to concentrate on the task at hand."


Some excellent info! How often do we take the time to address all the issues? For most of us, we don't address them until we are forced to. The above routine described by Bob has to be an ongoing thing. It is best done as a scheduled sitting and all pending issues should be addressed. Those that can't be immediately resolved should be set aside with the firm determination to address them at the next scheduled time. An even more important part is to address them the next time and sincerely try to resolve them. If we keep putting off an issue, it will keep trying to get our attention at any instance it sees an opening. What better time than when we're trying to be calm and think of nothing? Once you've established a good routine, you will find it easy to set aside something that may crop up during that quiet time of shooting. Simply take a moment to address whatever it is and then resolve to fully address it at the next scheduled time. Then you should be able to get back to the task at hand. Thanks for that description, Bob.


Take Care, Ed Hall


**
Ed S, You had something great going on in what you wrote until, "forget the trigger". Never can you forget the trigger. Everything else sure but not the trigger. It is the only thing we are moving during a shot process. If you had a good day at the range understand that it things came together for you. When I have a day where I cannot seem to come out of the ten ring, it is like I am on auto pilot, not thinking about anything but just letting it happen. I am not forgetting about the trigger or the target, everything is just coming together naturally. Some people may never experience that, but when you do,you must understand that you are still focusing on the fundamentals it is just on a different level. A subconscious level. That is where we need to be in a string of fire, not consciously thinking about it but subconsciously. I only say this because it may confuse new shooters. They need to focus and focus well on the fundamentals when shooting. What you described is you reaching a new level for yourself. It is a great thing. You have experienced what they call the "zone" or the term in sports is "flow", where it seems you are not in control. I have one question. After the match were mentally fatigued? Let me know and I'll explain why I ask. BZ

One thing I've been working on is to simply relax. There are a lot of muscles that don't require any tension for shooting, but I have found that I tense them up. It is anxiety, and it doesn't have any place in the shot process. 

What I've found is I can concentrate on the dot and trigger, and the shot releases easier. I also see less twitching.

sbtzc wrote:One thing I've been working on is to simply relax. There are a lot of muscles that don't require any tension for shooting, but I have found that I tense them up. It is anxiety, and it doesn't have any place in the shot process. 

What I've found is I can concentrate on the dot and trigger, and the shot releases easier. I also see less twitching.

So how'd it work?

837 @ .22, 900 today's match. (Yes, I'm bragging.) Average is around 800. It felt calm without a lot of conscious effort.

CF and 45? Well, not so much. A 96, 1st time fire, 74 the 2nd. Frustrating.

I shot a league match earlier today, and I continued to struggle with getting all 5 rapid shots off in 10 seconds during the .45 match. Because the turning target system was out of order, the league used an audible tone to mark the start and stop times (bullseye app). I found that I had really been taking advantage of the 1.5 second target turning time on both ends of the 10 seconds of rapid, and losing 2 or so seconds really hurt.

That said, I took 2-3 seconds to get my first rapid shot off, and my late shots were no more than 0.5 seconds late. I figure if I can cut down that first rapid shot time, that will buy me some extra time for the other 4 shots in my rapid series. So that's what I'm practicing.

I have a scaled-down turning target I made with a microcontroller and servo motor. I'll practice waiting for that to turn and dry-firing my .45 at it, trying to get a perfect trigger pull in 0.5 seconds or so after the turn. That's my focus for this week. 

I have a question for the coaches and masters/high masters in the thread. When do you reset your trigger during rapid fire? Do you reset immediately after you feel recoil and begin your recovery, or recover first and then reset/pull trigger in one smooth motion with the dot once you recover your hold? Do you recover somewhere in the middle? Most advice I've heard is to reset as soon as possible and begin moving trigger to the rear during recovery. Does anyone do it differently and find success with that?