Just sitting around and talking about Bullseye

Well with the rather open-ended of what the CMP will accept as a “Service Pistol”, maybe every pistol 9mm or bigger can be considered a “Bullseye Pistol”.  As for the other stuff people try and sell, I’m considerably open to whatever.  Mostly because I shoot other stuff besides Bullseye.

Despite the Wikipedia page (and we all know how accurate they are), as far as I know “Bullseye” is a Pistol shooting discipline also called Precision Pistol. I don’t think there is a rifle shooting discipline called “Bullseye”. The Wikipedia page and others who are not really experts refer to several shooting sports as bullseye but then further classify them by their real name such as “10m Air Pistol”.  Our Sport of “Precision Pistol” has always been referred to as “Bullseye”. So anyone in the sport would probably know the difference.

When I was younger I seemed to remember the type of shooting being done was to what the target was. Bullseye being concentric rings that are numbered as to the difficulty hitting it. There could be Silhouette either rifle or pistol. I agree that over time bullseye was considered pistol but probably why it was changed to Precision.
 The Service matches formally run by the Army DCM required the use of the firearm used by the military. The 9mm was allowed because it was the military weapon at the time and Applied to both rifle and pistol. Ammo was issued,was of the same type being used by the military. The concept of the Service matches was developed back when some General noticed new recruits that had previous shooting experience required less shooting instruction than others. Also VFW and American legion had guns and ammo that could be released to the civilians as a last resort. That is why the Army still supports training at Camp Perry and why the service firearm being used is of the type used by the military. CMP trying to increase participation slightly altered the rules because at the time all they handled was the service matches that changed since the NRA and CMP seem to be at odds with each other.
 The NRA did a good job determine how matches should be run and like too many organizations money corrupts the operation. It would be wise for the CMP to look at what the NRA did since years ago they weren't as corrupt. For example Bianchi Cup is now being run by CMP, the top winner usually being a High Master will win High Master trophy and prize, if he's is Police wins that too in addition if of the age needed wins senior award as happened this year. So one guy wins almost all the awards, that don't happen in NRA shooting!

Froneck wrote:When I was younger I seemed to remember the type of shooting being done was to what the target was. Bullseye being concentric rings that are numbered as to the difficulty hitting it. There could be Silhouette either rifle or pistol. I agree that over time bullseye was considered pistol but probably why it was changed to Precision.
 The Service matches formally run by the Army DCM required the use of the firearm used by the military. The 9mm was allowed because it was the military weapon at the time and Applied to both rifle and pistol. Ammo was issued,was of the same type being used by the military. The concept of the Service matches was developed back when some General noticed new recruits that had previous shooting experience required less shooting instruction than others. Also VFW and American legion had guns and ammo that could be released to the civilians as a last resort. That is why the Army still supports training at Camp Perry and why the service firearm being used is of the type used by the military. CMP trying to increase participation slightly altered the rules because at the time all they handled was the service matches that changed since the NRA and CMP seem to be at odds with each other.
 The NRA did a good job determine how matches should be run and like too many organizations money corrupts the operation. It would be wise for the CMP to look at what the NRA did since years ago they weren't as corrupt. For example Bianchi Cup is now being run by CMP, the top winner usually being a High Master will win High Master trophy and prize, if he's is Police wins that too in addition if of the age needed wins senior award as happened this year. So one guy wins almost all the awards, that don't happen in NRA shooting!

Your summary is pretty accurate although I would take exception with your characterization of the actions taken by CMP regarding Service Pistol matches.  I agree that CMPs motivation is to increase participation and they made a MASSIVE change in 2015 when they introduced a laundry-list of eligible pistols to go with the 1911 and M9.  I've had multiple discussion with the folks at CMP and have decided they will continue to do whatever they want regardless of the original tradition and intent of the Distinguished Program.  I fear that it will eventually become yet another "Participation Award" as requirements become more diluted.

As for original tradition, I fail to see which action specifically diminishes the award. The Distinguished programs were designed as a way of recognizing continued “Excellence in Competition” of its participants. The rules and courses of fire have changed over the years. The 45 1911 pistol was dropped as the Service Pistol in 1985, 38 years ago. The government don’t even load ammunition for it anymore. It is generally no longer available in the supply system. The M9 pistol is in the process of being replaced with the M17/M18 service wide. So what precisely is “THE” service pistol to be used inEIC matches? What ammunition? Just pointing out that the program has to adapt to current realities.

mbmshooter. I don't understand your exception, possibly my wording was incorrect but I agree with you and attempted to state the same thing! Kinda come shoot pay the fee and get an award. Bianchi Cup is tilted toward the sponsored shooters. Not all the targets are the same. For example 1 and 2 barricade is stiff all the others flop around. Target location right and left of the barricade are in correct location others are not but it seem sponsored shooter get the better targets. Other targets are at different heights, another target the shooter is shaded by a tree and limits the amount of light needed when shooting iron sights! In addition the Open winner will win all the sub classes such as this year Open, High Master, Police and Senior! (All won by the same guy) no wonder attendance is down! I'm hoping Henderson will have some influence and make some changes for the better. Why this year at Perry Small Bore and Pistol run at the same time????
Wobbly, the 9mm Beretta was allowed by the DCM being it was the Service pistol. But after a while the CMP was allowing guns that were never used by the military. Plus they lowered the Ammo from military issue to anything that was reloaded! As I mentioned the intent was to have civilians proficient in military weapons. Maybe the idea is out dated because all the weapon were removed from the so called civilian armories but the getting of the Distinguished Medal shouldn't be.

Wobbley wrote:As for original tradition, I fail to see which action specifically diminishes the award.  The Distinguished programs were designed as a way of recognizing continued “Excellence in Competition” of its participants.  The rules and courses of fire have changed over the years.  The 45 1911 pistol was dropped as the Service Pistol in 1985, 38 years ago.   The government don’t even load ammunition for it anymore.  It is generally no longer available in the supply system.  The M9 pistol is in the process of being replaced with the M17/M18 service wide.  So what precisely is “THE” service pistol to be used inEIC matches?  What ammunition?   Just pointing out that the program has to adapt to current realities.

As originally intended, the "Excellence in Competition" recognized those soldiers who demonstrated outstanding skills with the use of their ISSUED pistols and rifles using ISSUED ammunition.  You are correct that there have been changes since then but for most of the time since its inception, the intent was for competitors to use firearms and ammunition ISSUED TO U.S. military personnel.  As those became generally unavailable, Rules allowed for their commercial equivalent.
Although the 1911 was no longer the "official" U.S. military pistol after the M9 was introduced, it never was eliminated from the Approved Pistol list for EIC competitions.  In fact, it still remains today.
With the introduction of the new Service Pistol into the military arsenal, it will become an Approved Service Pistol with the 1911 and M9 continuing to be on that list.
As for ammunition, the list of Approved Pistols I've seen on the CMP website shows 9mm, 40cal, 10mm, .45 and who knows what else.  This year CMP Rules will now permit LEAD bullets!  That's right, JACKETED bullets are no longer a requirement.  Now it's very possible that our military or some other military elsewhere on the planet issues LEAD-BULLET ammunition but I have to question just how far from the ORIGINAL "Excellence in Competition" we should vary.

Froneck wrote:mbmshooter. I don't understand your exception, possibly my wording was incorrect but I agree with you and attempted to state the same thing! Kinda come shoot pay the fee and get an award. Bianchi is titled toward the sponsored shooters. Not all the targets are the same. For example 1 and 2 barricade is stiff all other flop around. Target location right and left of the barricade are in correct location others are not but it seem sponsored shooter get the better targets. Other targets are at different heights, another target the shooter is shaded by a tree and limits the amount of light needed when shooting iron sights! In addition the Open winner will win all the sub classes such as this year Open, High Master, Police and Senior! (All won by the same guy) no wonder attendance is down! I'm hoping Henderson will have some influence and make some changes for the better. Why this year at Perry Small Bore and Pistol run at the same time????

I've stated my position and choose not to belabor it further.  It's been over 30 years since I was awarded my Distinguished Pistol Badge and I'm thankful it was done with ISSUED 230gr FMJ ammo as had been done by others for decades before me.  I don't wish to detract from anybody else's accomplishments in more recent years regardless of the pistol or ammunition you used.  YOU EARNED IT!  Be proud of your journey and result.

mbmshooter; again I agree with you! I Too was awarded the Distinguished medal about 30 years ago from The DCM. Used only issued 230 grain Ball ammo in gun that was inspected to confirm it was of typical military issue. Only exception that was allowed was adjustable sights. I feel the current rule cheapens the award we earned years ago.

Maybe the mods could merge out the two topics then. As someone chasing distinguished with a 45 I think it's fascinating.

I split this topic off from a post that started in another section and ran off topic.

  I started with Wobbley’s post and it continues from there.

Y’all just have a good time talking.   

What’s next ? Red dots for the Presidents 100?

Conventional matches are about getting the best of everything to hit at the same time; equipment, ammo, techniques, and psychology. 

I saw Service Pistol as a standard that was hopefully comparable over time, ie that Distinguished means something more than a participation award. It is an extra step up to shoot iron sights with jacketed ball well. Reality is different though.  I know things aren’t true to the original intent. I tried running local at just 25 yards because 50 is hard but most club members can’t even fathom doing that. My job is to convince them that they can do it even with the equipment they already have. Revolvers made precision easy. Not so much with jam-a-matics

Well, rifle guys get to use optics because of the ACOG.  

That is an M17 with the SigSauer Romeo sight for the M17/M18.

I personally think it would be cool if everyone had to use the current service pistol, no external mods other than adjustable sights. Factory jacketed ammo. Level playing field. Cheap to get into the sport.

Dave

I think the new rules are ok.  If you really want a higher level of competition you need more participants. A 4 lb trigger of any manufacture is a decent equalizer and easily enforced.

Rather than change the rules, change the match. They came-up with .22 distinguished match. I understand the CMP is working on a 38 revolver match, fine no problem. But to change the rules in a match that has been going on for years is a way that makes the match easier to shoot cheapens the accomplishment earned by those years ago. The CMP is selling ball ammo so there is NO reason they can't issue it to ball match competitors!  Everyone is then using the same ammo, gun type being the same as was used by the military without exterior changes. Out of the box production gun rules are stupid! It don't work! So don't use it!

Easier to get Distinguished now vs then?

I think there are more things to consider than bullet shape, caliber and type of gun. If not mistaken, back in 1911 230 ball era, there were plenty of people shooting BE and there were no qualifying scores. In other words many matches had sufficient nonDistinguised shooters competing so that multiple legs could be earned. Some again with no qualifying minimum score. The acceptance of the Beretta M9 9mm all but forced a change. My background was PPC, BITD there ammo was issued on the line, now that has changed. Back when I shot 1978-1981 there were around 900 competitors at the Nationals. Today, I think that is closer to 200. I think now in PPC competitors may handload.

I believe it was about the  time of the Beretta (stand corrected if wrong) that minimum qualifying score was instituted in order to possibly receive any leg. I further believe this was CMPs attempt to relevel the playing field with the 9mm now being permitted. Now, they have to keep doing more since the "precision" shooting sports are losing attendance. I think now they are trying rebuild. They have to do something.

Sadly for me, until two weeks ago I had never shot in any EIC match which had a possibility of the required "big leg" yet I have my 30 points, but no big leg. I did mine with a 1911 .45. My all of my scores were in the mid 260s, except one, it was a 271. Still no Distinguished since I lack the "big leg".  Personally, since it applies to me personally, I would like to see CMP permit a score TBD in earning a 6 point leg to be substituted for a big leg requirement. Under the current guidelines earning Distinguished, for me, is not more difficult, it is likely impossible, unless I am will to go to Camp Perry or Attebury or some match of that sort which may offer a big leg and of course I shoot well enough to capture it.

I have shot the Bianchi Cup 20 or more times. First was in 1981. Then there were no categories, no divisions, no classification, no special categories. Whoever shot whatever with the highest score was winner, whoever shot whatever with lowest score was last. The simplicity of that was welcomed at that time. Perhaps the NRA both saved it and ruined it over the years. I hope the CMP isn't pressured to keep some of the same policies and practices. If they do, they continue to attract the winners of past, because they like it just the way it is. I encouraged Hendo to try to make some big changes. I think they decided to not rock that boat too much, since it is still afloat. I think it will get better under CMP than it was the final years of NRA. We will have to wait to see what, if any changes, CMP is willing to make.

I got Presidents 100 and Distinguished in rifle at Perry with an M1A in 1986. I do not feel that the award has been lessened by the overwhelming switch to optics mounted AR-15s in 223. To the contrary, it makes me prouder to have achieved it in that “olden times”. The match is the match, the award is the award. Still tough to do. It’s just changed.

I got an "expert pistol" badge in the USMC in 75, the 1911 was pulled from a barrel full of them, it rattled like a baby rattle, I always wondered how I would do with a tight gun?

mbmshooter wrote:

Wobbley wrote:As for original tradition, I fail to see which action specifically diminishes the award.  The Distinguished programs were designed as a way of recognizing continued “Excellence in Competition” of its participants.  The rules and courses of fire have changed over the years.  The 45 1911 pistol was dropped as the Service Pistol in 1985, 38 years ago.   The government don’t even load ammunition for it anymore.  It is generally no longer available in the supply system.  The M9 pistol is in the process of being replaced with the M17/M18 service wide.  So what precisely is “THE” service pistol to be used inEIC matches?  What ammunition?   Just pointing out that the program has to adapt to current realities.

As originally intended, the "Excellence in Competition" recognized those soldiers who demonstrated outstanding skills with the use of their ISSUED pistols and rifles using ISSUED ammunition.  You are correct that there have been changes since then but for most of the time since its inception, the intent was for competitors to use firearms and ammunition ISSUED TO U.S. military personnel.  As those became generally unavailable, Rules allowed for their commercial equivalent.
Although the 1911 was no longer the "official" U.S. military pistol after the M9 was introduced, it never was eliminated from the Approved Pistol list for EIC competitions.  In fact, it still remains today.
With the introduction of the new Service Pistol into the military arsenal, it will become an Approved Service Pistol with the 1911 and M9 continuing to be on that list.
As for ammunition, the list of Approved Pistols I've seen on the CMP website shows 9mm, 40cal, 10mm, .45 and who knows what else.  This year CMP Rules will now permit LEAD bullets!  That's right, JACKETED bullets are no longer a requirement.  Now it's very possible that our military or some other military elsewhere on the planet issues LEAD-BULLET ammunition but I have to question just how far from the ORIGINAL "Excellence in Competition" we should vary.

I appreciate your comment about equipment changes. I wrote a letter to the CMP last year (Henderson) requesting for the approval to use lead Bullets rather than just jacketed. 

I started shooting BE and reloading for pistol about 2 yrs ago and obviously it has been very difficult to find the appropriate jacketed Bullets in stock for the service pistol game. When they are in stock they are 40% more than lead bullets. In an effort to avoid pricing this game out of existence, loosening some of the unnecessary equipment requirements just seems to make sense. 

-Trevor

One of the reasons 230gr bullets are not available no one wants them for reloading! To add to the problem is why shoot 230gr when 180gr is acceptable. Therefore demand is low and makers of bullets will follow the demand. On the other hand during the time loaded ammo was very difficult to get 230gr FMJ was available. If for a match I see no reason the CMP can't provide the ammo as did the DCM years ago. I have no problem with the allowing of the 9mm since it is the service pistol of the day but feel it should be limited to the same weapon type. The new service pistol if rack grade has Red Dot sight it too should be allowed but the Red Dot only on that gun type! But all should be supplied with as issued ammo!
 NRA rules have been very good and changed when needed. The CMP should use them and not allow the Open winner to win other awards as they did in Bianchi. If a persons wins 1st thru 3rd in open they should not win high category. Being it will usually be a High Master that wins the 3 open positions a 4th place High Master should win High Master class. Same with other classes if one was good enough to win Open. Open is the best score regardless of class!
 Also CMP should insure all target positions are exactly the same! Why should one or two targets be better and all the others, it give an advantage to shooters on those targets that somehow are the sponsored shooters! Level the playing field!

Froneck wrote:One of the reasons 230gr bullets are not available no one wants them for reloading! To add to the problem is why shoot 230gr when 180gr is acceptable. Therefore demand is low and makers of bullets will follow the demand. On the other hand during the time loaded ammo was very difficult to get 230gr FMJ was available. If for a match I see no reason the CMP can't provide the ammo as did the DCM years ago. I have no problem with the allowing of the 9mm since it is the service pistol of the day but feel it should be limited to the same weapon type. The new service pistol if rack grade has Red Dot sight it too should be allowed but the Red Dot only on that gun type! But all should be supplied with as issued ammo!
 NRA rules have been very good and changed when needed. The CMP should use them and not allow the Open winner to win other awards as they did in Bianchi. If a persons wins 1st thru 3rd in open they should not win high category. Being it will usually be a High Master that wins the 3 open positions a 4th place High Master should win High Master class. Same with other classes if one was good enough to win Open. Open is the best score regardless of class!
 Also CMP should insure all target positions are exactly the same! Why should one or two targets be better and all the others, it give an advantage to shooters on those targets that somehow are the sponsored shooters! Level the playing field!

Agree regarding awarding of awards. BITD, OW 1,2,3 where not eligible for other lessor awards for the same match. Typically, but not always, Ist HM went to the person who came in 4th and so on

Regarding range or match issued ammo, I guess it has become to much of a hassle or liability. Much like guns as awards. A few decades ago guns were often awarded for Open and Class Awards. I suppose, cost, liability and BATF hassles put the skids on that.

Also agree range, position etc should be as similar as possible for all. Several things. I can recall decades ago, that competitors would plumb bob PPC targets to assure that they were vertical. It mattered when you do a head hold on a B27 target. The terrain when shooting prone quickly, or barricade matter greatly when shooting quickly. At Bianchi, Lane 1 on the barricade is in the shade, also lane one 10 & 15 yd barricade is recessed into the ground more than the rest. I have shot there many times when lane one barricade had 2-3 inches of water in it , the others dry. One would think, if after a rain, the Barricade ROs would take a target (cardboard) and sweep out the water. I never saw it, they may do it for some. Lane 4 on the plates drops off compared to the other other lanes. At 25 yds prone, it matters.

Conditions will rarely be exactly the same, but the obvious should be addressed is reasonable in my opinion.

I guess the liability issue does matter but I don't understand why BATF is worried about a competitor being awarded a Pistol (In Pistol match) when the shooter has a least 2 guns to compete with. I remember telling the officer that was printing me for a permit to purchase a pistol when I already was issued 10 pistol permits when responding to my question as to why bother since I had 10 pistols, he said you might commit a crime with the one being applied for so I said don't worry if I do the crime I'll use one of the other pistols! Long story so I'll not go into it but I became such a pain in their butts I just had to call them then pick-up the permits the same day! I'm thinking if I did that now I'd be jailed as a Terrorist!!
 As to Ammo I guess the TZZ issue being the ammo was intended for machine guns not pistol yet it was being issued at the service pistol match. However if they use commercially made ammo the makers have liability insurance.
 As to targets being the same I think an effort should be made to make them identical as possible, I understand they can't be perfectly the same but at least enough that one don't provide the shooter with an advantage/disadvantage over others. Level playing field is all that is required to be fair to ALL competitors!!

Regardless of the pistol/rifle rules.  You need to shoot a MIN score to WN the match to earn the leg points.  You also need to find a hard to find Hard Leg.  it took me a long time to find an opportunity to get a hard leg.  In all of the EIC matches I shot in there where only 2 that had 16 people over a 10+ yr period.  Maybe the change in ammo for pistol enables shooting better scores easier for some.  Not sure if there is data to indicate scores have gone up since we can shoot a 185 JHP or what every you can find now the shoots better at 50.

Bottom line is you still need to shoot the best score to get the leg points.

My Father, a bullseye shooter of some note, in the 50's 60's, used to tell me a story of a course of shooting where you DREW a service pistol out of a container of them, EVERYBODY, then you shot the leg for score and at the end of the leg if you liked the pistol you could buy it. how's that for keeping things even?