Precision Pistol 2700 Strategy

Thanks for this. Not mentioned is how physical fitness relates. I'd like to find some data on grip strength vs precision but I'm afraid there are too many factors to sort. I'm seeing quite a variation personally.

Jon,

Thank you for your comments and your experience shooting reduced .45 loads.  I am also one of those older shooters whose scores reflect a diminished strength and stamina.
If we wish to give your reduced loads a try, perhaps you could make some suggestions about how to modify the springing to accommodate these reduced loads while maintaining functionality.
Also, many of us use slide-mounted optics and some may even use the RRA rail with iron sight and optics slots.  How does that extra weight affect the operational reliability when using the reduced loads?

Mike

mbmshooter wrote:Jon,

Thank you for your comments and your experience shooting reduced .45 loads.  I am also one of those older shooters whose scores reflect a diminished strength and stamina.
If we wish to give your reduced loads a try, perhaps you could make some suggestions about how to modify the springing to accommodate these reduced loads while maintaining functionality.
Also, many of us use slide-mounted optics and some may even use the RRA rail with iron sight and optics slots.  How does that extra weight affect the operational reliability when using the reduced loads?

Mike

Mike,

I've personally ran Aimpoint 9000 (8.4 oz) on slide mount down to 3.4 gr BE 200 lswc on rebarreled SA RO I built for a customer. I was in control of everything, so it's easy for me. Many pistols out there have timing issues that cause problems running lighter charges even when considered a loose pistol. 
I typically build new and rebarreled pistols to use 10# recoil spring; my lug fit governs this. The reduced charges with optics usually eject onto the bench.

I have several iron sighted pistols I've been shooting 3.3 gr BE with 10# recoil spring. Ejection is only a couple feet to the right.

So I would start with a 10# spring and see whether it cycles and if it does where its throwing the brass. Adjust spring up if necessary. 

I have found on pistols with poorly fit barrels (not locking up good) that light charges can shoot worse than a warmer load. I assume the higher pressures keep the barrel in battery longer.

So I recommend trial and error to the masses LOL

Jon

Centerline wrote:Thanks for this. Not mentioned is how physical fitness relates. I'd like to find some data on grip strength vs precision but I'm afraid there are too many factors to sort. I'm seeing quite a variation personally.

When younger I used to apply gripping pressure to only the front and back strap of the pistol. As I've aged I discovered I needed to use more thumb heel pad pressure. I eventually switched to using fingers and thumb pressure. The thumb pressure assures that my heel pad is fully engaged in gripping. I grip firmly, but not too tight. Consistent pressure is the key.
Jon

I’m 70 and drive 3-1/2 hours to the match. My philosophy is to expend the minimum amount of energy on everything except the shot I’m trying to make.
Every time I talk with my coach his first question is how much I dry fire. That must be important.
I shoot light loads that shoot decently at 50 (3.9 BE/185 cast). I have a 13 twist gun coming that will shoot great with even lighter loads. A healthy lifestyle and staying active and physically fit is probably the most important thing to do. Then dry fire a lot

Just my take on springs for light loads, I’m not an expert so use at your own risk.
Swap out mainspring to the next lightest weight. If you have a misfire go back to the original. Get a recoil spring calibration pack (and keep track of which is which based on my mistakes). Install the 13 pound spring and shoot your load. If it functions you need to reduce your load. If it doesn’t eject go to the next lighter spring. Continue working down till the slide locks back every time and the brass lands close (3-5 ft before bouncing across the concrete). Later on if the slide doesn’t lock back it’s a warning before having a failure to eject. This is common when the temperature drops. Oil the gun with lighter oil or switch to a lighter spring. If you change loads repeat this process.

Jon,
Excellent posting, thank you. I too am wondering about functional reliability with heavy slides and reduced loads. I have a Bo-Mar rib SA custom shop special that is an alibis machine with anything lighter than a 16# spring and 170-up power factor loads. If I go to “light loads” (10# spring and loads that work fine in standard slide weight guns, 4.2 Tight Group/185 or 3.9/200g), the slide velocity is super slow, brass lands on the bench, there are failures to go into battery/eject and you can feel the entire feeding cycle. These heavy slide guns are all new to me, I come from the action pistol games of IPSC/USPSA/steel so light bullets, big charges of slow powders, big power factor, compensators, short lightened slides and super fast cycling is what I understand well.

tomd999 wrote:Jon,
Excellent posting, thank you. I too am wondering about functional reliability with heavy slides and reduced loads. I have a Bo-Mar rib SA custom shop special that is an alibis machine with anything lighter than a 16# spring and 170-up power factor loads. If I go to “light loads” (10# spring and loads that work fine in standard slide weight guns, 4.2 Tight Group/185 or 3.9/200g), the slide velocity is super slow, brass lands on the bench, there are failures to go into battery/eject and you can feel the entire feeding cycle. These heavy slide guns are all new to me, I come from the action pistol games of IPSC/USPSA/steel so light bullets, big charges of slow powders, big power factor, compensators, short lightened slides and super fast cycling is what I understand well.

Most shooters use slide mounted Ultra Dot. They are hair over 4 oz. They typically will run on any pistol down to 3.4 BE provided everything is fit correctly on the pistol. Barrel links are all too often too short and will speed bump barrel lugs during cycling into battery. 
I build/fit my barrel lugs really tight but make sure everything is timed correctly for proper function. I have guns that are so tight you wouldn't believe they run a light load. 
Some pistols like the Baer 45's typically have wedge fit bottom lugs and links that are too short. Not conducive to light loads. So some guns might need some caressing to shoot the lighter loads. Also if feed ramps not correct (barrel set back) your cartridge could be speed bumping into battery during feeding. Will not be reliable pistol.

So several areas to check for proper function. 

Don't know til you try typically. SA Custom shop guns vary, SA has been known to farm out gun work so you really don't know who built the pistol.

Can you correct the Baer bottom lug fit without welding them up?

Rush223 wrote:Can you correct the Baer bottom lug fit without welding them up?

If pistol has hard lock up going into and out of battery there might be enough lug left to do some fitting. If comes out of battery easy (check with no recoil spring)  most likely needs welded and  refit.
Jon

Jon,

Most likely this pistol has two strikes against it as Les was running the custom shop when this one was built.

The pistol feels “tight” but not in a good way, “binding” would be a better description and its functionality is not smooth, it’s “clunky”.

tomd999 wrote:Jon,

Most likely this pistol has two strikes against it as Les was running the custom shop when this one was built.

The pistol feels “tight” but not in a good way, “binding” would be a better description and its functionality is not smooth, it’s “clunky”.

Les was never known for his barrel fitting skills......true story behind that. But damn good businessman/money maker!

What do you think about the Kart Xact barrel fit. Is the bottom lug cut to delay opening.

Rush223 wrote:What do you think about the Kart Xact barrel fit. Is the bottom lug cut to delay opening.

Bottom lugs are the hardest part of fitting 1911 barrel. Kart guesstimated the lug height from known gun tolerances and came up with arrangement to prefit the bottom lugs and the installer of the barrel only had to fit the hood and then upper barrel lugs. Done deal and fast. I'm not a fan of that barrel, it's not good for all pistols. Pistols with closer tolerances will have decent fit. Pistols on the outer side of tolerances will have minimal upper lug engagement. More felt recoil from unlocking way too fast. Yes its better than a factory fit barrel, but the world I live and play in its not my idea of a good barrel fit. Guess you could say you get what you pay for. There are gunsmiths out there using that barrel charging $6000+ dollars for a gun build. Go figure?
Jon

Jon:  I would agree in principal, but there a fly in the ointment.  If I’m like anyone else out there, I've always thought that I don’t need more dispersion from lower accuracy ammo adding to my poor performance.  I spent a year shooting slow fire on 25 yard centers to develop trigger control, grip, position, and accepting / reducing wobble.  I could shoot 96-97 with good x counts often enough to feel that my fundamentals are ok.  My practice drills in sustained fire gives me 85s.  I’m working on getting them better.  However, to that end, I’ll try down loading some and see.  My last batch of training ammo was loaded with 180 Brazos and 4.3 BE.  Stouter than most perhaps but I did that without testing my gun to see where the “minimum operating” load was.  I can only shoot about 3 times a month when I can get to the outdoor club here so that adds to the challenge.

Ashley,
I base my thoughts and opinions on this from observations of all the shooting classifications. There are root causes for all of our shooting deficiencies. Tolerances stack.....pistols inherent accuracy, ammunition accuracy and shooter dynamic. Most shooters that do not shoot very often suffer from recoil and the sound of the shot firing. They also suffer from having poor trigger control from not shooting/practicing enough to maintain a skillset. Then we top it off with harsher recoil of more accurate loads. The pistol has a consistent performance level as well as the ammunition. The shooter is the weakest link when all three are added together. Basic conditioning, fatigue and performance that is either positively or negatively affected by the ammunition/recoil over the course of the 2700.
So a common error for right handed shooter is low left shots at 50 yards when forcing off a shot. As match progresses and fatigue sets in the shots start going everywhere as opposed to a consistent area. Fresh shooter shooting 10's and 9's and the occasional low left shots. The fatigue sets in and now you see lower left shots and more shots that are out of the 9 ring. Gripping fatigue affects the trigger pull. Trigger pull is number one error for most shooters. The hotter load increases the trigger pulling error.
So I try to be a realist. We have the shooters that shoot a lot! And those that shoot a little. It's kind of like running. Runners that train 4-5 days a week have a capacity to run further and faster. If you run once a week your really not a runner and cannot expect to perform like a runner who trains 4-5 days a week. I approach shooting the same way. I know from experience that I cannot handle the warmer charges for the duration of a match without giving up points from the fatigue. The ammunition is more than I can handle. I'm being honest with myself. If I shoot my softer loads I can perform at a higher level longer and shoot better scores.
Whenever we try something new, we need to give it a chance. I believe it takes 6 months to make a change and be comfortable with it. When I changed how I grip a pistol it took 6 months of really hard traning to finally get used to the change. I love the change, but it was truly an effort. I look at the red dot but tried looking at the target because Zins and Henderson look at the target. I gave it a year and went back to watching the dot. I gave it an honest effort.
So the way I see it, try it. You'll either stick with it or go back to what you've been doing. It can't hurt anything?
Jon

Great insight on fatigue and trigger management!

Love that this wasn’t just “Hit more X’s”

Jon, I have been using a lighter load (3.8 gr WST, 180 LSWC) for the short line, and 4.0 gr with the same bullet at the long line.  I would like to go even lighter at the short line and for practice indoors.  Assuming I have my recoil spring set correctly for my short line load, will using the heavier long line loads damage my pistol?

This is a great topic and will hopefully help keep us older shooters going longer.

TL;DR

john bickar wrote:TL;DR

Kidding (mostly) but you did bury some good bits of advice in that wall o' text about reduced loads. (Sorry, I was re-watching that awesome Ohio State win over Notre Dame.)

The 2700 is an endurance event.

Truth, particularly the one-day 2700.

trigger pulling error(s) is the number one cause of not shooting a good group

Truth. That's also why low-recoil .45 loads won't take someone from MK to MA. Doing a ball-and-dummy drill with any MK will prove this.

If I’m calling my shots spot on I don’t feel the need to RR.

Truth. I very rarely Random Rest, and mostly when I do, it just disappoints me. The ability to Random Rest a gun successfully is an art, and may or may not have any correlation to the numbers you can put on the scoreboard.

But most shooters are lucky to shoot twice a week

I'm lucky if I shoot live fire once every two weeks.

There are some really good 45 wad gun shooters out there who shoot ball ammunition horribly.

AHEM

Give it an honest try

Well, I'm just about out of 452AA and need to work up a new standard load with different powder this off-season. I think I will.

rburk wrote:Jon, I have been using a lighter load (3.8 gr WST, 180 LSWC) for the short line, and 4.0 gr with the same bullet at the long line.  I would like to go even lighter at the short line and for practice indoors.  Assuming I have my recoil spring set correctly for my short line load, will using the heavier long line loads damage my pistol?

This is a great topic and will hopefully help keep us older shooters going longer.

Ray,
Your loads are close enough that the same recoil spring should be fine.
Brass should be landing in about the same spot on the ground.  With wad loads brass should not be traveling as far as  ball load brass. Should be about 5-6 ft to the right and 3 ft or so to the rear. If further try a 1# heavier spring. 
Jon

john bickar wrote:

john bickar wrote:TL;DR

Kidding (mostly) but you did bury some good bits of advice in that wall o' text about reduced loads. (Sorry, I was re-watching that awesome Ohio State win over Notre Dame.)

The 2700 is an endurance event.

Truth, particularly the one-day 2700.

trigger pulling error(s) is the number one cause of not shooting a good group

Truth. That's also why low-recoil .45 loads won't take someone from MK to MA. Doing a ball-and-dummy drill with any MK will prove this.

If I’m calling my shots spot on I don’t feel the need to RR.

Truth. I very rarely Random Rest, and mostly when I do, it just disappoints me. The ability to Random Rest a gun successfully is an art, and may or may not have any correlation to the numbers you can put on the scoreboard.

But most shooters are lucky to shoot twice a week

I'm lucky if I shoot live fire once every two weeks.

There are some really good 45 wad gun shooters out there who shoot ball ammunition horribly.

AHEM

Give it an honest try

Well, I'm just about out of 452AA and need to work up a new standard load with different powder this off-season. I think I will.

Senor Bickar, thank you for your input. I already learned something today (TL;DR  I had to look it up lmao) so I can now rest on my laurels for another 24 hours.

Appreciate your comments as always. I never did ball and dummy training yet somehow made master in 7 matches. Guess some steps can be skipped lol.

All kidding and truth aside, my intent is to provide another direction one can take that might help there overall grand aggregate.
  
Service Pistol matches are like scantron test. Some people excel at multiple guess and others choke. I can remember seeing a guy shoot 870+ 45 aggregate and then shoot a 230's EIC score with hardball. You remember being able to buy a ball gun cheap on those days lmao.

So no I didn't expect anyone to over night shoot PB (that's Personal Best....didn't want you to have to look that up), merely sharing what's worked for me.

For a guy who shoots 2.5x a month I applaud your successes. You must have a great dry firing plan that works well for you.

Bonuses; less powder charge equals more loaded ammunition per pound of powder. Too bad primers didn't work like that! Using lswc bullets much cheaper than jhp bullets. When shooting 2600+ go jhp for 50! Brass last longer and so does your gun.

Had a KKM 13 twist barrel tested in a barrel test fixture. With 3.0 gr BE and a home cast bullet (commercial bullets barely held 10 ring) put all shots in the X ring (622 fps).  A little evolution taking place here in a dying sport

Enjoy your Kommiefornia day!

Jon

I should add that a 180 with reduced charge shoots softer than 160. 160 needs too much powder function in the first place.
Jon

I have read the 200 gr bullets were softer shooting than 185. I’ve always shot 185 but just ordered several thousand 160s based on my gun builders recommendation (KKM 13 twist barrel).
Your thoughts.