455 Webley Service Revolver Challenge 2025

Good evening,

I recently rewatched The Pacific, the HBO miniseries that focuses on the Marines and the Pacific campaign in WW2. As you can imagine, it really isn't much of an uplifter, as nothing about war is pretty, pleasant or glorious. However, in episode 9, Sledge is shown using what must be a M1917 revolver, and he shoots it double action style, which if Dale Dye had anything to do with this particular bit (and he almost certainly did), then it is authentic.

Of course, this gets a bit beyond the start. In media res, you know?

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Having worked on the 230 ball ammo project for the last year, it was time to direct my attention elsewhere. Why? Well, doing different things keeps the sport fresh to me, and the learning process- what some may believe to be some bits of rediscovery- that I go through helps me to keep pushing boundaries, keep the spirit focused on marksmanship. Learning new platforms, exploring nooks and crannies that don't otherwise get a lot of travel just appeals to me. While it is true that not every dusty book in library is worth reading, I do think going back, digging deep on little visited topics can help continue to inform your current worldview.

It's really no secret that I enjoy revolvers. And so when I thought about what could I do as a project for the 2025 season, I immediately thought of wheel guns. But what I didn't want to do was something that had already been done- the 38 was out. Keeping things logistically easy meant I probably needed to look at the 45, but I was put off by some of the prices for M1917 revolvers. Then it dawned on me- the CMP really focuses on WW2 to now, which sort of makes sense because of all the 1911s still in storage, along with Garands; it's just a case of inventory being what it is and us living in the time that we do.

But what if you went further back, to why the M1917 was introduced, or, even better, look around at a Webley from the Great War! Now that might actually be something worth doing, but could it be done in a way that was competitive for our competitions of today? Everything I read about Webleys seemed to suggest that they were great battle revolvers, but accuracy wasn't what they were known for. However, S&W and Colt both produced revolvers in 455 Webley for the British and Canadian forces in WW1, the great war, the one that was supposed to end all others. I don't have a lot of attachment to either Britain or Canada, but Camp Perry is just across the lake from Canada, and so I started looking for a specimen from there. Knowing better than to purchase an old Colt that may or may not be able to be worked on at great expense either way, I went for a Smith and Wesson.44 Hand Ejector 2nd Model in 455 Webley, which was the service cartridge of the time for the Brits and Canadians.

I found one that was unmolested and appeared to be little shot. This was important because I wanted to go after this particular challenge with what would have been issued to a soldier (or sold to an officer- things were different back then). There is a whole history of what happened to the service revolvers after WW1 and WW2. I wanted one as close to "period correct" to attempt the matches in 2025 just as if I had shown up to the trenches in WW1. No work was to be done to it, other than to make sure it was in good mechanical condition.

There is some load development to be done, but I've now secured all the necessary gear- brass, dies, bullets and revolver.




I hope you'll join me on another crazy quest, and dust off your revolvers and join me on the line in 2025.

-Chase

I’m in!

I have a Webley MkIV, a Colt New Service in 455, and a Smith & Wesson Hand Ejector like yours.  Unlike yours my Smith was “rechambered” to take 45 Colt, but it shoots 455 just fine.  

Service 455 Bullets are available from Bear Creek Supply tho any decent 45 ACP lead bullet should do if sized for your revolver… The consensus is to keep the pressures down.  You do that by keeping the velocities down to around 650 or so… 

If you need to bounce ideas, let the thread explode!

Not my gun, just a picture to get interest.

Completely off topic, but I used to work with a guy who lives near Chatham Ontario and I love the fact that at Camp Perry we are shooting almost directly at his house.

I'm not going to join the 455 Webley challenge, sorry, but don't let me discourage anyone from trying. It combines 2 things I don't really like, Revolvers and another damn cartridge I have to reload for.

I think it's great. I get to look for a new gun. Might find one old enough FFL not required.

I've shot a .455 Smith off and on since the late 1980s. It makes a distinctive "hollow sounding" report when discharged. Not like a .45 ACP at all. Started off with some old (even then) CIL .455 Mk II Colt brass, which I still have, but it is way different in length from the way more common Fiocchi ammo/brass. Back then I had to cut off the bottom end of a .45 Colt seating die to load and crimp bullets. Cast Lyman 454424 "Keith type" bullets work well as did the old W-W 0.456" diameter hollow base swaged bullet for .45 Colt. (I managed to keep a few boxes of those all this time!) If you can't find a 454424 mould, the newer 452424 mould should be able to be made to work through various means. 
WW231/HP38 works well. IIRC, .45 AR data is useful.

BTW, One of my .455 S&Ws stayed well away from the trenches in all probability, as it is R.F.C. marked. But you never know.

jmoore wrote:I've shot a .455 Smith off and on since the late 1980s. It makes a distinctive "hollow sounding" report when discharged. Not like a .45 ACP at all. Started off with some old (even then) CIL .455 Mk II Colt brass, which I still have, but it is way different in length from the way more common Fiocchi ammo/brass. Back then I had to cut off the bottom end of a .45 Colt seating die to load and crimp bullets. Cast Lyman 454424 "Keith type" bullets work well as did the old W-W 0.456" diameter hollow base swaged bullet for .45 Colt. (I managed to keep a few boxes of those all this time!) If you can't find a 454424 mould, the newer 452424 mould should be able to be made to work through various means. 
WW231/HP38 works well. IIRC, .45 AR data is useful.

I'm starting with ~3.1 of BE using the Bear Creek 265s in new Starline MKII brass. I've corresponded with some folks, and have been reading threads over on the CB forum. I've already run into some minor difficulties:

The Lyman three die set I picked up doesn't have a flared opening on the sizing die, and of course the crimp die is part of the seater. Also, this is of course all steel dies- I don't know that anyone made anything for this caliber in carbide. How are you set up die wise? I imagine I could switch to a 45LC sizer without issue (and pick up the flare and carbide there- still would want to lube cases, but just a spritz to help go through the press), but I get back to the problem of crimp.

In chatting with C.E. Harris, he mentions that he at one time used a modified Redding Profile Crimp Die in 45AR that he had .1" ground off the bottom and flared in order to get the crimp he wanted. Luckily for me, I have such a die in my 45AR toolhead, but a surface grinder or lathe I'm real short on.

Interested in your setup, might help give me an idea or two. And, thanks for the notes on the bullets. I don't want to have to cast for this, but may end up needing to.

Thanks,
Chase

P.S. My 2NDMDLHE definitely hung out in a holster, don't think it ever saw a trench.

https://www.titanreloading.com/product/45-colt455-web454-casull-carbide-crimp-die/

Knock out the sizing ring for crimping. Or, if you are lucky, it will be slightly under size and may work as a sizing die if you decap separately.

Well lets go too with the Commonwealth revolvers chambered in 38 S&W  (not 38 Special).  The Victory types.

I have two 38 S&W revolvers.  The subject revolver here
https://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/71374-38-200-pix.html

And I have another smaller frame Regulation Police 38 S&W.

 Serial number indicates maybe 100 years old.

Jack- I thought about one of them, but got my heart set on a big bore  . 

The recent issue (Aug/Sept 2024) of Handloader has an article/loads on the 38 S&W: https://www.handloadermagazine.com/pet-loads-for-the-38-s-w-pet-loads

Have you shot yours and if so, what did you like reloading wise?

-Chase

Chase Turner wrote:

The Lyman three die set I picked up doesn't have a flared opening on the sizing die, and of course the crimp die is part of the seater. Also, this is of course all steel dies- I don't know that anyone made anything for this caliber in carbide. How are you set up die wise? I imagine I could switch to a 45LC sizer without issue (and pick up the flare and carbide there- still would want to lube cases, but just a spritz to help go through the press), but I get back to the problem of crimp.

In chatting with C.E. Harris, he mentions that he at one time used a modified Redding Profile Crimp Die in 45AR that he had .1" ground off the bottom and flared in order to get the crimp he wanted. Luckily for me, I have such a die in my 45AR toolhead, but a surface grinder or lathe I'm real short on.

Interested in your setup, might help give me an idea or two. And, thanks for the notes on the bullets. I don't want to have to cast for this, but may end up needing to.

Thanks,
Chase

P.S. My 2NDMDLHE definitely hung out in a holster, don't think it ever saw a trench.

I use an old (merely "used" when purchased...) .45 Colt RCBS steel sizing die. It actually sizes more way up inside the die. The reduction in diameter is measurable and visible in a distinct transition area. It doesn't come into play with the .455 cases. My RCBS seating die was parted off in a lathe to shorten it. Flaring the opening was easy enough: Just split a dowel or other round stock with a hacksaw, etc. deep enough to slide in a piece of folded cloth backed sandpaper. Chuck it up in a drill and spin whilst working the assembly around the die opening. Replace the abrasive sheet when it flies off or wears out. All hand held if you have no other options. FYI: The die I have was case hardened. Adds a little challenge. Trying to use a hacksaw won't work if you try to shorten the die without a lathe. (A lathe to use took some months to find way back when!)

 The Lee .455 die set isn't much good. The expander is OK, though. It mostly gets used on .45 Colt cases that are slated for large diameter bullets. 

You do need to stick with heavier bullets, lest the sights get "unregulated". The 0.456" W-W unobtainium 255gr hollow base bullet has been the best used to date. Might have to try the Bear Creek offering!

ETA: The Bear Creek bullets look VERY similar to the W-Ws!

I could get into this just for my love of "Peaky-Blinders" (although Shelby did switch to a 1911 in the 3rd or 4th season).

busy day for me - but am v interested in the thread.

I live in the US now which makes things easier as my previous countries banned handguns. (UK completely banned handguns) & Canada (no new purchases effectively banned).

When living in Calgary, an archeologist showed me some 'Colt 45' bullets & Cases they had excavated from a North West Mounted Police fort.  Not Colt!  .455 webley but were they using a webley or colt new service?  (I have both so need to check the rifling to see if we can determine what they were using).

The Colt NS has .455 Eley as the calibre as they didn't want to put a competitors name on their pistol.

Quite by accident I now own a set of British military sidearms from the 1890's to the present day.

.455 Webley
.455 Colt NS
.38 Webley
.38 Enfield
9mm HiPower (nicely tuned)
9mm Glock IV

The Webley has the owner's name engraved (he is mentioned in dispatches and survived the war) I need to check the production date to see if this was the pistol he could have carried on the raid.

I have contacted his family in the UK to let them know that his pistol is cared for (Clean and shoots)

His name is I Walmesly-Cotham (I think his name was Ignatius but known as Ivan) you can look him up and see his record and raid he took part in.

The otyher curio, is that I bought a period holster for the webley, with the name J A Dobbie written on it.  Turns out he was a member of a 'special engineering regiment' aka Poison Gas detachment. He had stuffed a crumpled 'flimsy' (daily orders) sheet into the bottom so that the pistol rests on it.  I would like to get it out (without destroying) to see what it says.

Contacted the Imperial War museum and local curators for advice (no dice).  Will probably have to unstitch it to remove it but I don't want to mess it up so it stays where it is.

More later...

~ Mike

jmoore wrote:BTW, One of my .455 S&Ws stayed well away from the trenches in all probability, as it is R.F.C. marked. But you never know.

Royal Flying Corps?  probably v rare.

As pilots did not have parachutes, they carried a revolver in case of fire

I like this idea quite a bit.  I do not now, nor probably ever will, own a 1917 S&W or Colt revolver.  What I do have is a S&W model 25-5.  Forty-five Colt of course.  It has, however been "blessed" with those pesky large chamber throats.  Does anyone have a reloading base solution for this?
Thanks

PacFltShooter wrote:I like this idea quite a bit.  I do not now, nor probably ever will, own a 1917 S&W or Colt revolver.  What I do have is a S&W model 25-5.  Forty-five Colt of course.  It has, however been "blessed" with those pesky large chamber throats.  Does anyone have a reloading base solution for this?
Thanks

If you cast your own, it isn't a big problem as there's moulds that throw 0.454"+ bullets by design. The old 454424 Lyman, for example. My first new revolver was a 25-5. Back then they were all "large throat". Bought a single cavity mould, which worked great! Didn't size them, just put them in a Lee lube dish and used the "cookie cutter" to remove them from the solidified bed of whatever concoction that had been poured into the dish. 

ETA: Found some new Lyman 454190 moulds, so there's an option.

ETA2: Here's a single cavity "Keith style" Lyman mould:
ebay.com/itm/135128956723

Those Bear Creek bullets mentioned above should work well if you want "store bought" bullets. Same powder charges as the smaller diameter bullets of the same weight..

BTW, most new dies size the cases more than is desired and the expanders don't open up the cases enough to seat larger bullets without the potential of squeezing them undersize. Hard cast might help mask that drama. Find some old gear online or at shows. I can modify or make my own stuff, but never have done it as a side gig. Folk wouldn't want to pay that much, for one!

PacFltShooter wrote:I like this idea quite a bit.  I do not now, nor probably ever will, own a 1917 S&W or Colt revolver.  What I do have is a S&W model 25-5.  Forty-five Colt of course.  It has, however been "blessed" with those pesky large chamber throats.  Does anyone have a reloading base solution for this?
Thanks

You might want to reach out to Tony at The Cast Bullet Shop. I know he can size bullets however you need them, he makes great bullets, and is a bullseye shooter who also loves revolvers. I bet this is a thing he can help with.

-Chase

I do not cast my own so I am tethered to the commercial casters.  Chase and jmoore have given me food for thought.  Thank you both.

Range notes:

-I finally got the revolver to the range with my first loads. It appears that using 3.1 BE under a 265 Bear Creek RN shoots about center hold @ 20 yards. Recoil was fine. Ejection was mostly fine. Need to get these across a chrono, but I'm probably close to where I need to be.

-No idea how people could have shot these single action. The hammer might as well be on the moon.

-No idea how people could have shot these double action, either. Makes service pistol feel like airgun.

-If it is true that people 100 years ago were, on average, smaller, then the stocks size probably make some sense. But how on earth they held on to what little is there baffles me- especially as they would have presumably shot one handed? 

-Going to work on double action T/R.

First target, just trying to get a feel for the revolver, load, and sights:




More to come,
Chase

Try 200gr SWC .454 diameter with 3.9gr WST. Super accurate out of my S&W 25-2.

Bill

Chase Turner wrote:Range notes:

...
-No idea how people could have shot these single action. The hammer might as well be on the moon.

-No idea how people could have shot these double action, either. Makes service pistol feel like airgun.

....
More to come,
Chase

My WWI Webley has the same horrendous pulls. Safest place to be if I'm shooting in your direction is directly in front of the revolver.

My older .476/.455 is quite the opposite! Fabulous DA and a fine SA.

Chase: Regarding your die issues..

I have a Lee “455 Webley” die set.  These are available from Lee if not elsewhere.  The sizing die is marked “45 Colt” and us carbide with a normal bevel Lee puts on the mouth of the die.  The expander and seater die are “455 Webley” dies.  The expander is a “powder thru expander” and the seater is capable of crimping the 455 Mk2 (short) cases.  Here are pictures of the data sheets from the Lee set.

Thanks Ashley. I did think about "cheaping out" and going with Lee, but all I read was mixed reviews on whether it would work or not. I don't mind mixed reviews, other than they make deciding on what to do harder. Instead, I picked up (what I believed was) an overpriced Lyman set on Gunbroker, but underpriced relative to new Redding.

In any case, I did find someone to open up the ports on the Lyman dies to help with progressive loading, and also shortening the Redding 45AR crimp die for me. On the Redding, my thought is that I will be able to use more aggressive crimping in case I wanted to load 45ACP projectiles (bumped in diameter to .454ish) in 455 Webley cases- which may or may not work. If it works, great; and if it doesn't, then the die is still gtg for 45AR, just have to raise it higher in the toolhead. This path also may help with tighter crimp for regular 455 bullets if needed. More testing is necessary to determine best path.

Of course, I'm well aware of the crimping ability of a seating die- so all is not lost. Just never feels ideal to do it that way, even though we probably did it that way longer than we haven't.

Did get to River Bend this last weekend for some barrel testing and chrono recording. I've got lopsided samples of "crimped" (.476-.477) with the seating die versus not using that functionality (.478-.479), and at the chrono, while there was a difference, it was very minor, and could have been the result of a 10 sample size versus a 40.

In other news, going to get a friend with the requisite pin gauges to go through my cylinders and bore to see what the set up needs to be. But in the meantime, the Bear Creek Webley bullets seem to be OK at 50- but probably need to slow them down a little for printing higher on the target. 3.1 BE was giving me about 617 FPS, which is probably fine when the distribution hits that mark- but can also be too high with the variance of the powder measure, which means you can get minor case sticking, which is a no-go in a 100+ year old revolver.

Thanks,
Chase