Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Good morning all.  I was on this site this morning and read through the questions being asked about the Cardinal Center.  I thought that I would share some things with you and generate some discussion.

Mark Johnson, the COO of CMP, has advised that he will go to his Board of Directors and ask for funding to install electronic targets at Camp Perry that will be suitable to fire High Power, Smallbore, and Pistol.  If approved, the target date for being up and running is for the start of the National Matches in 2017.  The NRA will pay a lease fee to CMP for use of these targets.

I was recently contacted by a representative of the Cardinal Center and asked to commit to going there in 2017.  Cardinal Center will probably use turning targets and paper, just like what we use at Camp Perry now.  I did not commit but left the door open.  I cannot commit to going to a range that currently does not exist.  The target date for the start of the Cardinal Center is the start of the National Matches in 2017.

So now we might be faced with a choice; 1) stay at Camp Perry and shoot on electronic targets; 2) move to Cardinal Center and shoot on turning targets.

Everyone who has shot the National Matches knows what Camp Perry is like so I won't dwell on that.  At Cardinal Center there would be some major changes.  Not in the way the events are fired but in the way you live.  The cabins onsite would likely be taken up by the NRA to house staff, leaving RVs and hotels as the other housing options.  If you elect NOT to rent/bring an RV, hotels become important.  The nearest exit with hotels is 9 miles away and the next exit with hotels is 19 miles away.  I don't consider these distances to be objectionable but you might based on what you are used to.  At Bianchi Cup competitors drive 15 miles one way to the range each day and don't complain about it but this is a major change from the way things work at Camp Perry.  It won't be quite so easy to run back to your room after shooting a morning 900 and then return for the team matches that afternoon.  There is one, and only one, restaurant on site but plenty near the hotels.

The Cardinal Center is a terrific place but will entail some changes by everyone, NRA and competitors, alike.

Kick around the pros and cons and let me know what you think.

Dennis Willing

Since Camp Perry is used as a machine gun range during military activities it would seem that not only would you need to get a working electronic target system installed and running, but be able to take it all apart again and store it each year.  Logistically this sounds complicated and expensive.  Having suffered through HiPower at Camp Perry, I would be more than willing to give the Cardinal Center a try with a brand new turning target facility.

From the beginning, my issue with Cardinal has been housing. While it has ALOT of RV spaces,it does not have alot of housing otherwise. 

But I am left with a question, if one of the major costs of Camp Perry is Housing Volunteers and Camp Perry requires ALOT of Volunteers as compared to normal matches. Shouldn't the number of volunteers decrease at Cardinal. Wouldn't this mean less required housing? 

We need good housing options, and turning targets in my opinion. Is there an estimate on the total cost to rebuild the existing turning target system? 


Mike

Oh my...Well I have said it from the beginning and I'll say it again..I am totally and completely opposed to changing the format of bullseye by going to an electronic target and scoring system.. Learning to " shoot the turn " is a major part of the game...I do not put any value on nostalgic hut living, or miserable weather. Moving to Cardinal and away for the lake effect weather can only be a plus..A very large number of competitors do not stay on post..

I am very torn. 

I really like eTargets, I have shot on the eTargets on the Minneapolis Rifle Club range, the CMP air gun range at Perry and I own a SIRUS.  The big draw for me is the potential ability for my family to "watch" me shoot from the comfort of their homes back in MN.

BUT
I agree with Jerry, the turn is a big part of how the match is shot.  I'd also miss the social aspect of scoring.  The scoring also creates a little bit of a break.  How long would a 900 match be?  Would we still shoot a 2700 over 3 days? 

Either way I both gain AND lose something, count me as neutral.  After further thought I'd much prefer turning targets, Cardinal gets my vote.

- Dave

I should add I've only been shooting BE for 2 years so I don't have as much "vested" in the outcome.

The new huts are pretty nice. Well insulated, dry, clean and air conditioned. Heck it appears to me that each hut has an independent 80 or 100 amp electric service.  

But I agree with turning targets.

Hello everyone,
First I would like to say that I am bias. Cardinal Center is a great place and with the addition of this complex, Will be the premier shooting facility in the United States .
We have not had a sponcer / range owner willing to spend millions of dollars to help grow the sport that we love, untell now........
I can tell you that, as a competitor, the design incorporates everything most all have wanted.
Concrete floored Covered firing points, golf cart access to 100' of the firing line. Concrete walls between ranges. A new pneumatic powered computer operated turning target system.
Will the corse of Fire be different... No
Will the housing be different.... Yes
It seems to me that either way, change is going to happen. So, that being said, what do you want changed??? Dennis wants your opinion... Please, what ever that opinion is, let it be known. As always, if you have questions, feel free to ask !!!

Mike,

Rebuilding the current system is not an option.  CMP owns the pistol turning target system, not the NRA.  The NRA likely would have no interest in rebuilding someone else's system.  In addition, CMP could get any lease fees if we stayed with turning targets.  If approved, they will invest $6.5 million in electronic targets.  I imagine they would want to recoup some of those costs.

Denny

Are the clean water faucets/ fountains, rest room and shower facilities at Cardinal able to handle the amount of shooters? Is there an air conditioned facility to host the classroom instruction for SAFS and awards ceremonies? Are there buildings to house a commercial row? Is there adequate hard surface parking available at Cardinal? How would entry fees be affected by moving to Cardinal? Does Ohio have a law in place that protects existing shooting ranges from future closure by government entities?

Mike, Cardinal currently holds 3 of the top 5 largest trap shoots in the US with 1600.... Yes 1600 competitors there for a week at a time.
Yes they can handle pistol....

I work in hardware and software and have for 30 years. CMP is seeing the maintenance issues of such as system right now at Talledega. Without a doubt the maintenance issues of the e-targets will make the system cost far more than $6.5 million. The KTS system depends on the condition of the front and back covers (and rubber membranes) of the target system to create a sound chamber that both blocks the sound of adjacent shots and provides accurate shot placement via the microphone system. 

Here's a question for everyone. What does a Bullseye target backer look like after 90 shots, or 180 or 270? We all know the answer. Its a picture frame with a 9 ring size hole in the middle. Now lets run 3 or 4 relays on that backer and see what we get. 

Read the experiences of Gheelong Rifle club in Australia and then extrapolate them out to 3 relays of 90 shots with the 45 acp for two days, with 3 relays of 90 shots of 22 on another. What will the maintenance be. 

http://www.geelongrifleclub.asn.au/electronic-targets/

It would seem to me that some people have forgotten KISS. A well maintained electro mechanical system will be more accurate, cheaper and have a longer life expectancy than an electronic system, especially for bullseye use. 

I like Camp Perry ALOT. But it will be hard to overcome my skepticism about e-targets until more issues (including maintenance) are fully resolved with the existing implementation in AL.

I don't see how the CMP could provide working electronic targets at camp perry when they cant even keep them up and running at their brand new complex in Alabama. They have had them shot to pieces in high power and in pistol. Im for staying with camp perry if new original type equipment is built, if not by all means im for moving to cardinal where it will be.

To answer your other questions.. Yes it is quite the facility

Commitment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Olympics are committed to without a site!
Government contracts are committed to without a product!

Make a decision and make it happen.

I'm for turning targets.

Jon

Dan, what percentage of those Trap competitors arrive in their own RV's? I've slept in the car or the truck to be able to shoot matches before and even hung a hammock from between the supports of a range cover.  I am not against Cardinal, but among the issues that I see are housing and vendor issues caused by two venues (since I don't see CMP moving its entire operation to Cardinal for pistol). I don't have an RV and I don't like driving 10 or 20 miles each way to shoot. I do like turning targets and good access to vendors. 

If there is a scheduled regional for Cardinal, I will likely drive 540 miles each way to shoot it. That will tell me whether I think it is a suitable replacement. Remember, two and now three years of smallbore in IN, have made ALOT of people unhappy for some of the same reasons that I question the suitability of Cardinal.

As part of my job, I make courtesy visits to a number of locations, all usually vying for our championships.  Many will never be suitable for our needs, others have potential, and still others are head and shoulders above the others.  Cardinal Center is the latter.  Cardinal Center has more potential than any site I've ever visited. 

They have the capability of handling 3 times more competitors than Pistol would bring.  This includes surface parking and vendor space to keep those competitors happy.  Golf carts are allowed, and encouraged, almost up to the firing line.

There are two large conference areas that are sufficient for both SAFS (if it came there too) and for an awards ceremony. The largest room can handle more people than the theatre at Camp Perry and host a sit down dinner if desired.

Their registration system is capable of registering 1000 competitors in 3 hours.  Their computer capabilities make it look as though the CMP and NRA just discovered computers yesterday and are now working off that original Apple 64.

They have their own Wi-Fi system, facility wide.  They have their own cell phone tower.  I've never successfully gotten either at Camp Perry and it doesn't look like I will. 

They have a PA system that covers the entire facility.

As I recall, there are 24 private showers in the shower house, lockable.

My overall impression is that everything will improve at Cardinal Center over Camp Perry, including the shooting conditions.  No more boats in the impact area or storms blowing in off the lake.

What will change are two things; the target system if we stay at Camp Perry or the housing situation if we move to Cardinal.

What can you live with?

Dennis Willing

I understand JM Davis. I to was skeptical once. Not anymore.
Cardinal has the best infant structure already in place.
They build strip malls for vender row. There are three barracks style buildings that have 192 beds each, a 1/2 mile from the new complex that could be used. These are not the open squad bay type. their are approximately 200 full RV hook ups with tones more spots with just electrics and water. Everyone that has been there has seen the potential. I am sure some will post their comments.
Take a look at their web site for starters.
http://www.cardinalcentercamp.com

I think a major question is what will the cmp do.  I cannot see competitors loading up on Saturday night driving to Perry to shoot the EIC matches.  So will the CMP hold their matches at the Cardinal?  I also agree that the housing is a problem if the NRA takes all of the housing for their staff.

And finally I have been going to Perry for around 20 years and for myself if and when they change to eTargets it will be my last year.

I have never been to Perry, but I am all for moving to a new location if it make the event cheaper for a shooter and draws more to the sport.  My main concerns are not so much the targets or the range, but travel and lodging costs.  From what I understand people stay at Perry in the Huts.  If everyone is forced to stay in commercial lodging would the community support a discount in lodging to shooters? It sounds like large events are already held in the area so I imagine the community can handle the events.     

This will be my first year to Perry, and the thing that surprised me the most was the lack of a shuttle service from a major airport to the event. If Cardinal was to hold nationals would shuttles(with or without a fee) be an option for airports and local lodging? 
As for the CMP supporting Cardinal I think if you can show them cost savings and drawing more to the sport (a bring a buddy program would be nice) they will be behind it.  Look at all the CMP games that are all over the states now.  I am even for having a commercial vender sponsor the event.

Guys, why would the CMP want to move when they are committing $Millions to camp Perry. I think that the CMP will stay at Perry. The question is what will the NRA do. This year I will shoot NRA pistol for the first time. I have shot CMP Pistol, and CMP and NRA Rifle. 

Port Clinton has ALOT of facilities. It is a vacation destination with Condos, campgrounds, restaurants etc. 

I would not rule out shooting at Cardinal. As a matter of fact when the facility is ready and they schedule a regional I will be there. 

But I have no desire to shoot  a couple of days at Perry and then several at Cardinal for NRA pistol. Particularly if I can schedule time for Canton McKinley.

The amount of money to hold the pistol phase at Perry is staggering. Think about it, you have to remove from paid storage a 400 point turning target system that was built in the 50's. Install it. ( which takes up to 3 weeks, so I have been told.) get it working. To shoot Compatitions for 7 days. All to tear it down in three days and put it back into storage for the rest of the year.
Now, comparing that to show up at a prepose built privet lay owned range. Shoot for 7 days. Then leave....
Mean while this same range would be open to the public for the rest of the year. Would any of you like to shoot at this range in May? August?
This is not in Compatition with the CMP. It would augment and help the CMP and NRA with all the shooting programs. in my opinion it is a win win situation for both the NRA CMP and the competitive pistol shooters

I suggest the people who decide things like electric targets be the ones who maintain them hands on.  Sounds to me like electrics are a high maintenance item.

Until there are turning electronic targets that are 100% accurate, I will choose turning paper targets.

Denny,

You mentioned additional costs associated with shooting the national matches on CMP's electronic targets.  Would costs to use Cardinal be lower than NRA's current costs to use Camp Perry?  Would shooters see savings?

Dane,  I agree to an extent but my qualifying question is if the CMP spends the money on the ETargets will they be willing to do the EIC matches at Cardinal?  I would hope they will.  But maybe Dennis can answer that question if it has been discussed with the CMP.  I believe that the Cardinal Center has to have a match (regional or just  registered match) before they hold the Nationals.

Also if they can handle the registration for the big trap matches which have may more side matches than pistol why would the NRA need all those people there for that also they handle the scoring and that should reduce the number of people needed.

I would also miss seeing competitors in Port Clinton all week at different times.

Just to recap and confirm what Dennis and Dane have already posted; The Cardinal Center is located 20 minutes from the north side of Columbus, right off interstate 71. You can be at the facility in roughly 40 minutes from Port of Columbus Airport. The Cardinal Center is one of the largest privately owned facilities in the country. We host 3 of the 5 largest trap shoots in the country based on championship event entrants. We have two 12 unit vendor buildings, with plans for a third, directly behind the trap line. Our sporting clays facility is comprised of two 14 station courses, a 5-Stand, and a full service clubhouse. We are planning to begin construction of a third sporting course this winter. Our campground consists of 500+ RV sites, 29 cabins (4 of which are handicapped accessible), a 400 person (seated) banquet hall, an indoor pool, a seperate building that can seat close to 300, and a 24 private unit bath house.

Not only does the Cardinal Center work with industry manufacturers to execute the highest quality competitive events, we also work with local accommodations to provide our shooters with the best rates possible. Within a 20 minute drive of the facility there 1000+ hotel rooms and at least 150 restaurants.

I look forward to entertaining any questions you may have.

Jake Spengler
Shooting Sports Operations Manager
Cardinal Shooting Center