Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

First topic message reminder :

Good morning all.  I was on this site this morning and read through the questions being asked about the Cardinal Center.  I thought that I would share some things with you and generate some discussion.

Mark Johnson, the COO of CMP, has advised that he will go to his Board of Directors and ask for funding to install electronic targets at Camp Perry that will be suitable to fire High Power, Smallbore, and Pistol.  If approved, the target date for being up and running is for the start of the National Matches in 2017.  The NRA will pay a lease fee to CMP for use of these targets.

I was recently contacted by a representative of the Cardinal Center and asked to commit to going there in 2017.  Cardinal Center will probably use turning targets and paper, just like what we use at Camp Perry now.  I did not commit but left the door open.  I cannot commit to going to a range that currently does not exist.  The target date for the start of the Cardinal Center is the start of the National Matches in 2017.

So now we might be faced with a choice; 1) stay at Camp Perry and shoot on electronic targets; 2) move to Cardinal Center and shoot on turning targets.

Everyone who has shot the National Matches knows what Camp Perry is like so I won't dwell on that.  At Cardinal Center there would be some major changes.  Not in the way the events are fired but in the way you live.  The cabins onsite would likely be taken up by the NRA to house staff, leaving RVs and hotels as the other housing options.  If you elect NOT to rent/bring an RV, hotels become important.  The nearest exit with hotels is 9 miles away and the next exit with hotels is 19 miles away.  I don't consider these distances to be objectionable but you might based on what you are used to.  At Bianchi Cup competitors drive 15 miles one way to the range each day and don't complain about it but this is a major change from the way things work at Camp Perry.  It won't be quite so easy to run back to your room after shooting a morning 900 and then return for the team matches that afternoon.  There is one, and only one, restaurant on site but plenty near the hotels.

The Cardinal Center is a terrific place but will entail some changes by everyone, NRA and competitors, alike.

Kick around the pros and cons and let me know what you think.

Dennis Willing

Ghillieman wrote:Can you separate the poll?
-Camp Perry
-Cardinal Center
-Electronic targets
-Paper targets

I'm for the electronic targets, but I'm also for the Cardinal Center building a range with either.

No, this discussion topic is Perry with electronic or cardinal with paper, as there is no mention of cardinal having plans for electronic.

Dear Shooters:

As you may (or may not) have noticed, I've refrained from posting here for a while (and I'm sure some of you may have been grateful for the silence).  In any event, this topic has driven me to provide a few thoughts for your consideration as well. Since the only qualification for rendering a response seems to be just having an opinion, I would appear to be just as qualified as anyone to opine.  If you know who I am, then you know I have some other qualifications as well, but being un-opinionated is not one of them.  If you don't know me yet, hopefully we'll meet at a match one day.  I plan on shooting as much as I can). 

First off, the question posed is merely an indicator of a potentially larger issue we as precision shooters need to address (and quickly) in my opinion.  We have two different groups with the purpose of providing competitive shooting programs with similar but not exactly the same rules, courses of fire, governance and support.  

Please consider that IF the NRA and CMP eventually hold matches at two different locations, then I will opine that BOTH programs will see less participation than if they continue to use the same venue.  For either group to propose and go to separate locations will probably not work out well for either program or shooters as a whole. Dictating a technology or process changes in the face of other preferences is probably not a great course of action either.  This would seem to produce a "loose some - loose some" scenario for both parties.  

In any event, the individual shooters will eventually choose where and what they want to shoot based on the competition, distance, time, cost and facilities and one venue or the other may wind up on the loosing end.  

So Dennis, I'm not voting to either.  I am asking that if possible and for the good of the sport both parties try to find a common location, sequential dates and share resources to have a great "National Championship" and "National Match" every year.   Summer time and vacation time is limited.  I'm asking for both groups to make it better.    

What I would also propose is that the NRA, the CMP and other private facilities, such as Cardinal, get together and have regional matches 2, 3 or 4 times a year in various parts of the country.  More matches will mean more shooters.  Then the "Nationals" could rotate between the best facilities if that is what the shooters want. (Ok, I get it.  Cardinal does great for shotgun games, please prove it can run a BIG pistol match too.  You'll get more supporters that way.)  

(And for all the "make it convenient so I can do something else shooters" I hear you.  But as a COMPETITOR, I really don't care if its air conditioned and covered with gun caddies and cheerleaders or in a North Carolina black water swamp while it rains with water moccasins hanging from the frames.  As long as the NRA and CMP are working together I'll be there.  If I wanted something convenient, I'd take up bowling so I could drink beer at the same time.  And as a match director I can tell you that "convenient" shooters don't keep a program running, consistent competitors do.  I'm just saying you can dance a few dances with everyone, but remember who brought you to the dance.) 

Anyway, I'm out of here, signing off, putting my muffs on and getting back to fundamentals.  I noticed there are now more that 4 times the number of posts in "equipment" versus "fundamentals".  Apparently not much has changed.

No matter what, Sir Walter will have 2700 matches starting 4th Saturday, March 2016. Come on out and shoot with us. 

"Wish you'all lots of luck" (Sim Carstairs - Ferryman; The Outlaw Josey Wales)

Cecil

Well said Cecil...

Aren't turning targets (for timed and rapid fire) required for an NRA Registered Bullseye Match? We shouldn't even consider electronic targets until the targets can meet the rules for Bullseye competition, in my opinion. With five million members I would think the NRA would have enough muscle to convince the CMP that we need a range with 300 turning targets at Camp Perry (where the CMP runs matches in line with the National Championships). To separate the CMP and NRA Championships would add to the decline of shooters in our sport.

Cecil makes some great points.  I'm also concerned participation may lessen overall.

I'm torn myself.  I like idea of e-targets but I know they are overly expensive and less practical.  I also like the Cardinal center with the improved range conditions found there versus Camp Perry.

Of course we lose a major part of our sport's history by changing venues.

Like any other sport change is taking place and will continue to do so.

CMP has been making broad changes to firearms allowed, ammo allowed and to their national ranges.  NRA less on the changes.

Maybe NRA and CMP can talk this over with input from shooters reps.  Compromise seems to be a lost art in the USA today.  In both politics and sports.

A lawyer whom I had been dealing with once told me something like "You know it's a good compromise when nobody is completely happy with the outcome. "

In compromising we all have to give something up to come to an agreement for the overall betterment of all parties involved.

Unless I missed something, the NRA conducts the Distinguished program..The CMP does the paper work.
I and thousands of other police officers drove all over  most of the east coast of the United States chasing police distinguished points in the 1980s/1990s.  That program was administrated completely by the NRA.. When I and several other local police officers ran VA State and Regional Championships, distinguished was not a dificult program to include and  or operate. Why can't the NRA conduct the distinguished match at another venue, ( Cardinal) and send the paperwork into the CMP, which is exactly what takes place the other 11 months of the year at local club run CMP matches..??  I would venture /hazard a  guess, that any facility that can conduct a 1000 participant  shotgun  match, would be able to handle 500/600+ bullseye match..AND, I bet they will not penalized competitiors monetarily for failing to register before an arbitrary date. This passed year at Perry was as good example as any to embrace another venue. I stood under a canopy scoping the 50 yard target of my lady shooter on the first morning of 22 day.. I could not see the target from the wind and rain with a 30 power spotter.. Oh, What fun !! Trained very hard for a solid year, invest much $$$,  travel considerable distance, to stand in mud, wind and rain..I took the time at Perry this year to go down range and inspect the target system.. Wow... Anybody with half a brain can see why that mickey mouse system has problems...
There are two groups of shooters.. Participants, and competitors...Competitors are there to win.. Participants party and play, hoping to win..

Gee, I don't know what to say.   Cecil made a lot of good points.    However I can't personally imagine the CMP actually funding an electronic system at Camp Perry without a firm commitment from the NRA to continue running the matches there.  


My preference would be neither of the choices in the survey.   It would be a new turning target mechanical system at Camp Perry.  


I also think the proposed date of 2017 for a new electronic system at Perry or moving the matches to the Cardinal center is wildly improbably optimistic.  Doesn't the NRA currently have a lease agreement with Perry that runs past that date?  

A better guess for electronic targets would be 2020.  Take the time frame required to do Anniston and double it to account for the fact that the entire system has to be tear down, and mobile.  Double the money too.  


The decision as to the location of the small bore matches, which ignored the wishes of the competitors gives me little hope that actually expressing a preference in this survey has any meaning at all.

Schaumannk-

I agree.  Not knowing all the behind the scene's discussions it does seem most survey questions are designed to support the pollster's agenda.

ak41 wrote:Schaumannk-

I agree.  Not knowing all the behind the scene's discussions it does seem most survey questions are designed to support the pollster's agenda.

I don't see that at all in the OP's questions.

james r chapman wrote:

ak41 wrote:Schaumannk-

I agree.  Not knowing all the behind the scene's discussions it does seem most survey questions are designed to support the pollster's agenda.

I don't see that at all in the OP's questions.

Well, at least this time around.. That's why I started my first post in the other thread with "Oh My"..
Last time this topic was presented, it was more like, this is how it's going to be, whether you like it or not.

http://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015/10/29/nra-smallbore-championships-update/

Schaumannk wrote:http://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015/10/29/nra-smallbore-championships-update/

As they say in court... "I rest my case."

Dennis didn't add the poll...... David R added it. ( thank you by the way...)
Dennis has asked for our opinions and I am sure he is reading these posts.

Schaumannk wrote:Gee, I don't know what to say.   Cecil made a lot of good points.    However I can't personally imagine the CMP actually funding an electronic system at Camp Perry without a firm commitment from the NRA to continue running the matches there.  


My preference would be neither of the choices in the survey.   It would be a new turning target mechanical system at Camp Perry.  



The decision as to the location of the small bore matches, which ignored the wishes of the competitors gives me little hope that actually expressing a preference in this survey has any meaning at all.

 there was an article in Susa to explain the rationale behind the decision to remain at Bristol for small bore.  Plainly it was money. There are plenty of bad guys to go around but the ONG shoulders a lot of it with the nickel and diming for facility rentals. 
 At my count there were about 100 competitors at any given small bore match.  Compare that to the 600 for bullseye and similar numbers for High Power.  The participation in small bore doesn't justify the expense of returning to Perry.  There were 131 surveys completed with the majority voting to return to Perry but the reason given was very often that they were told to choose that.  But the expense of Perry would require an entry fee increase.  Staying at Bristol may even allow w for a small decrease.

Wobbley wrote:

Schaumannk wrote:Gee, I don't know what to say.   Cecil made a lot of good points.    However I can't personally imagine the CMP actually funding an electronic system at Camp Perry without a firm commitment from the NRA to continue running the matches there.  


My preference would be neither of the choices in the survey.   It would be a new turning target mechanical system at Camp Perry.  



The decision as to the location of the small bore matches, which ignored the wishes of the competitors gives me little hope that actually expressing a preference in this survey has any meaning at all.

 there was an article in Susa to explain the rationale behind the decision to remain at Bristol for small bore.  Plainly it was money. There are plenty of bad guys to go around but the ONG shoulders a lot of it with the nickel and diming for facility rentals. 
 At my count there were about 100 competitors at any given small bore match.  Compare that to the 600 for bullseye and similar numbers for High Power.  The participation in small bore doesn't justify the expense of returning to Perry.  There were 131 surveys completed with the majority voting to return to Perry but the reason given was very often that they were told to choose that.  But the expense of Perry would require an entry fee increase.  Staying at Bristol may even allow w for a small decrease.

I will believe everything you say, when the NRA and the CMP open the books on Camp Perry and explain why they believe a rental fee of 58 bucks for the Theatre at Camp Perry and housing Camp Perry volunteers on post  is a greater cost than commercial hotel rooms in Elkhart, and an awards banquet at a commercial facility.  I guess cost shifting onto the competitors at Bristol gives the illiusion of a cheaper match.

My opinion, I can see HP rifle e- targets at Perry. Camp Perry is first and foremost a rifle range.
Pistol and small bore are a different things.
This is where I see a purpose built range for both pistol and small bore would save time and money. Instead of the CMP buying e-targets for pistol, and paying for the infrastructure upgrades to support them. Cardinal is willing to build a turn key complex. Instead of a three week build up, and installation of the target system. It could be less than a week for the office personal making the competitor packets. And I am sure in time, Cardinsl could provide that capability also.
Yes, this will come at a price. And that price is negotiable between the NRA, CMP and Cardinal. But I would imagine that it would cost a lot... And i mean ALOT less than Updating a facility in which the CMP and the NRA do not own. ( see http://fox2now.com/2015/10/01/shooting-complex-in-sparta-remains-closed-due-to-il-budget-woes/ ).

Since you brought Sparta up, what are the arrangements in place if Mr. Fishburn is no longer around? Will it continue as a premier shooting facility?

James, I have been told that that situation has been addressed, and is a none issue.
Just for everyone's information, I have not and do not work for Cardinal Center.

Cecil has good points, and I too would rather have everything at one venue but if I had to choose. With the CMP imo destroying the tradition of what it is to become distinguished by allowing most any gun or ammo I would choose just shooting Bullseye. So where ever the nationals end up with or without the cmp is where I would go.

I have been resisting chiming in.  I am ready to move.  Cardinal is better prepared for pistol.  Camp Perry is better prepared for Rifle.  If the CMP installs electronic targets, they will be rifle targets.  Pistol e-targets are far more difficult.  Electronic targets are great if you are shooting iron sights.  (CMP stuff) If you shoot NRA precision pistol in the open division with a dot or optics then you need to see the target and you need to see it turn.  Electronic targets do not currenlty turn. They have audible/visual start stop signals.  So NRA competition with optics won't work.  I have faith that the Cardinal Center as a precision pistol venue would far outshine the offerings of camp perry.  I would think the best thing the CMP could do for the pistol phase of the CMP events would be load up their van and drive down.  The AMU could hold the SAFS in the auditorium, The CMP could use the paper turning target system and do it the same as they do Eastern games or western games.
I think Small bore would fit at the Cardinal facility.  They could run concurrent with pistol.  Logistically there will be things to get sorted.  And yes running a large regional at Cardinal will happen before the nationals move. 
More important, I think the shot gunners would bring some new blood into the pistol sport.  Possibly the other way as well we pistol shooters may try a round of sporting clays.  (I know I suck at it but will try a round or two again.) So I look forward to the move.
I have some questions.  I thought the NRA owned the target turners at Perry?  Now they are owned by the CMP?  how'd that happen?  The NRA no longer has to pay storage for the target turners and the benches? What was the sale price of all that gear?  Will the NRA now have to rent it from the CMP?

If given the choice between Camp Perry Electric or Cardinal Turning I would choose Camp Perry.  I would still go to either if I had to for pistol or smallbore.  

I will not be returning to Bristol for smallbore.

My precision shooting goals have been Master classification, Distinguished revolver and Service pistol.
I have made Master and Distinguished revolver.
Service pistol has me at 30 pts needing a hard leg(8 or 10 pointer).

If I have to shoot on E-targets then so be it, it is the evolution of the sport, some would say.
But for the sake of argument would installing a new wood/paper turning target cost anywhere near the cost of E-targets including upkeep ?

My situation is that I am willing to go to Camp Perry to shoot for one day, all the ball matches and then go home.(remember that I only have one goal left).
I will also add the P100 since I am there

Is the CMP going to E-targets for their hardball matches and NRA precision ?
I can see shooting at a black hole using open sights but not using a red dot.

Maybe this is a stupid question, but
Since you cannot scope the shot is there a monitor for each person so if you need to change point of aim/scope adjustment ?

Maybe I need more explanation of what this whole E-target thing is about other than just the target we are shooting at.
What I am trying to ask is if there is a monitor for feedback if I need to shift my stance or adjust sights.
Maybe it would change my mind.

Clarence

C.Perkins wrote:Maybe this is a stupid question, but
Since you cannot scope the shot is there a monitor for each person so if you need to change point of aim/scope adjustment ?
Clarence

Yes, every electronic target system I have seen has a monitor at the firing point. It adds a new challenge because there is a HUGE temptation to immediately look down at the monitor.

Jerry Keefer wrote:Unless I missed something, the NRA conducts the Distinguished program..The CMP does the paper work.

The CMP conducts Distinguished Rifle (Service Rifle), Distinguished Pistol (Service Pistol) and Distinguished 22 Rimfire programs.

The NRA conducts Distinguished Revolver and all the PPC Distinguished programs.

SteveT wrote:

C.Perkins wrote:Maybe this is a stupid question, but
Since you cannot scope the shot is there a monitor for each person so if you need to change point of aim/scope adjustment ?
Clarence

Yes, every electronic target system I have seen has a monitor at the firing point. It adds a new challenge because there is a HUGE temptation to immediately look down at the monitor.

Link to pic of monitor
https://www.facebook.com/cmptalladegamarksmanshippark/photos/pb.1561585170782069.-2207520000.1448759151./1583592351914684/?type=3&theater