Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

First topic message reminder :

Good morning all.  I was on this site this morning and read through the questions being asked about the Cardinal Center.  I thought that I would share some things with you and generate some discussion.

Mark Johnson, the COO of CMP, has advised that he will go to his Board of Directors and ask for funding to install electronic targets at Camp Perry that will be suitable to fire High Power, Smallbore, and Pistol.  If approved, the target date for being up and running is for the start of the National Matches in 2017.  The NRA will pay a lease fee to CMP for use of these targets.

I was recently contacted by a representative of the Cardinal Center and asked to commit to going there in 2017.  Cardinal Center will probably use turning targets and paper, just like what we use at Camp Perry now.  I did not commit but left the door open.  I cannot commit to going to a range that currently does not exist.  The target date for the start of the Cardinal Center is the start of the National Matches in 2017.

So now we might be faced with a choice; 1) stay at Camp Perry and shoot on electronic targets; 2) move to Cardinal Center and shoot on turning targets.

Everyone who has shot the National Matches knows what Camp Perry is like so I won't dwell on that.  At Cardinal Center there would be some major changes.  Not in the way the events are fired but in the way you live.  The cabins onsite would likely be taken up by the NRA to house staff, leaving RVs and hotels as the other housing options.  If you elect NOT to rent/bring an RV, hotels become important.  The nearest exit with hotels is 9 miles away and the next exit with hotels is 19 miles away.  I don't consider these distances to be objectionable but you might based on what you are used to.  At Bianchi Cup competitors drive 15 miles one way to the range each day and don't complain about it but this is a major change from the way things work at Camp Perry.  It won't be quite so easy to run back to your room after shooting a morning 900 and then return for the team matches that afternoon.  There is one, and only one, restaurant on site but plenty near the hotels.

The Cardinal Center is a terrific place but will entail some changes by everyone, NRA and competitors, alike.

Kick around the pros and cons and let me know what you think.

Dennis Willing

John,
 A few things...
I am not going to disagree with #1, but shooting in a swamp, knee deep in mud, should not be an acceptable option.

Second.  Cardinal will be responsible for the ranges. All have one firing point that is covered. There is NO moving your box. Just like Canton McKinley.
 
THIRD. Incorrect. The NRA has see the plans. Cardinal has the land. Current NRA range officers have been on site and agree. The design of the range complex is fine. Have you seen the plans / designs and location? I have....  This is a pistol and small bore complex only. No HP rifle.

Forth. There are plenty of activities in the area.

BTW, the NRA and CMP will not spend a dime on Cardinal. It is  privately owned and funded. Sparta, IL is owned by the state of  Illinois. It was closed do to budget cuts. Just as Camp Perry is owned by the state of Ohio. Let us hope the political winds blow favorably in the next few elections, or we could be an executive action away from closing. Don't think it would happen??? Ask the people in Sparta IL...
 
As for the new CMP range at  Talledega.... You might find this interesting
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=176510

John Fowler,

You are dismissing the Cardinal proposal without looking at all of the information that we already have. Most of your points are contrary to info already posted here.
I'll go through your points by the numbers:
1. Paper Targets at Perry won't be an option for much longer unless daddy warbucks drops a several million dollar annuity for pistol matches at Perry, or ONG stops milking us dry because they know that there isn't any other facility capable of hosting us, so they charge us and the NRA the max that we can afford to pay.

2. Shooting benches? Of course there will be benches. NRA won't pen a deal if the facility isn't properly equipped.
The range design for Cardinal is one set of benches with 25 and 50 yard target carriers.

3. Effective berms? Come on John. Of course there will be berms. Seriously, the facility will have everything we need prior to any agreement for us to compete there.

4. The Columbus area has plenty of family fun stuff. It's just different from Camp Perry family fun stuff, and we will just need to find a different fish joint and a different drive thru liquor store that serves ice cream.
We are there to shoot.

The fact is that the national pistol matches cost too much at Camp Perry. NRA doesn't need to invest one red cent to theorize about moving the national pistol matches there.
If Cardinal doesn't work out, Perry will still be there.

If Cardinal is a viable option, it does 2 things: it puts pressure on the ONG to make their facility more attractive while giving us a great new place to compete that doesn't break the NRA'S bank.

Maybe with some more pennies, maybe NRA can use the savings to better promote our sport.

Even in we don't move the national pistol matches to Cardinal, it will be a win for us.

Speaking of our seemingly perennial discussion of promotion, I have a copy of the Oct 1990 American Rifleman that has the Nationals Coverage. There were over 10 pages devoted to the Nationals with 2 page spreads for High power, small bore and pistol that continued on other pages. There is certainly promotion power that is going unused.

I think Rob summed it up very well! I would personally hate to see a tradition like Perry end. Perry was a great place for shooters, over the years I've see the social part of Perry fade away. Year after year they have been receiving millions of dollars from Pittman Roberts  (If I spelled it correctly) and seen it squandered on projects not benefiting the shooters.
 Years ago when the local US House of Representatives member cast what I'm told was the deciding vote to not fund the DCM the local residents were furious. Maybe the threat of loosing more shooters and upsetting the locals will get those in charge of operating Camp Perry worried and do more to attract the Pistol shooters especially now that small bore is gone!

Froneck, Reference Pittman-Robertson- Not sure who was meant by "they" so I just emailed Ohio DNR asking if P-R funds have been provided for range construction, repair or operations at Camp Perry.  I will post their reply here.  I'm guessing unlikely since Camp Perry is not a public range and it resides on a military reservation part of the Fort Ohio set of the Ohio Adjutant General's office.  I do know Camp Perry upgrades, Viale, Rodriguez, housing, huts, roads have been funded in the NGB budget and put in place. Reference House Member- That was Marcy Kaptur (D) 9th, Toledo.  PC was redistricted now is represented by Bob Latta (R) 5th, Bowling Green who attends 1st Shot, was the speaker last year and usually shoots the Garand.  Paul Gillmor (R) Old Fort, deceased set up the CMP as the DCM was challenged in Congress every year the days of Bill Clinton and Carolyn Maloney (D) NYC.  It has worked well and fulfills its charter. 
Danehogle and Rob, Reference Range Safety-I owe you re-looking up the distance factors in the AR and the RSO manual and the measured distances to the adjacent public roads at Cardinal from Google Earth.  Did this before when the leak attributed to Gunny first appeared.  They are in my office so won't see them until 12 Jan but I have this as a due out to reply here.  I think the challenge is elevation, i.e. the stray round launched in space taking up the trigger coming down for sustained fire.  In Germany and in San Antonio we had an overhead/forward baffle system so that the max elevation for maximum distance could not get out of the range fan. Regards, John

John Fowler,
If your going to look up safety distance margins, you might want to learn to location of, and the type of backstop of the proposed range to be built at Cardinal first. I have all the ballistic distance information and the range designs.
As to safety margins, you might want to look at the Chief Wa-aka-De range in Bristol Indiana. Looking at Google maps, there is only 1400 feet to I-90 from the firing line. And they are currently holding the small bore nationals there. Canton McKinly has 3500 feet and a berm. Cardinal will have approximately 6000 feet and a burm. Again, you can ask all the questions you would like of me. I will be in Oak Harbor shooting in the monthly 2700 match on January 10. If you would like, I will bring a set of plans with me for you to examine. If that is not feasible, when you come down to Cardinal, feel free to let me know and I will give you a personal tour.

John Fowler,
I think you should do your research on the range location before you run your calculations based on assumptions and Google maps. The Cardinal facility covers much more land than is used by the trap ranges you may be familiar with. The pistol range I have seen designs for is a dedicated range with fixed target mounts at 50 yards and 25 yard turning targets for all 300 positions. In addition there will be 12 action pistol pits that could be used for functional testing and practice during large Precision pistol matches, each pit is separated by concrete walls. Up to 100 meters, tall earthen berms, concrete walls separating (2) 50 Meter and (2) 100 Meter capable ranges, all permanent covered firing positions, with miles of corn between the berm and any structure or road. Multiple NRA RO's, Range designers, and Collegiate coaches were involved in it's design. It is being built and is not NRA funded. It is a pistol range, not a rifle range but designed to be capable of holding Small bore matches and leagues up to 100 Meters. Hard to believe, yes. When all of the ranges will be complete, TBD and in phases but dirt started moving last April. I know I will be checking their web site for announcements regularly.

Hey,
Let's not get carried away with the nuances of safe range design.

It doesn't matter if Cardinal can't build a safe range with their own money. If they can't then we won't be moving there.

If the DO build a safe facility that is adequate for the national pistol matches, I'm willing to shoot there if it is fiscally prudent for the sport that we do so.

Danehogle wrote: Thousands of $ per day for a three week set up and a three day teardown

This reply is a bit late but the NRA pays for range/target setup then tear down.  The man in charge is the Range Engineer  who hires a crew of HS/ college kids for the crew. They set up the pistol range over a few days before the start of firing. These youngsters are paid min or maybe a bit more. They work a lot of OT. They haul targets to the ranges before firing each day and remove them after. They are repaired after for reuse. After the CMP Team Match HB you will have seen them starting that process. They are resposible for  the setup/removal etc for rall matches, pistol, rifle, ans SB when fired @ Perry.

For nearly the past 30 yrs the RE has been Joe DeCosta. He is a man dedicated to the mission. He has worked many hours during all those years doing everything in his power to ensure the matches run as smoothly as possible. Joe shot on both the Marine Rifle & Pistol Teams.

While I can't speak to the budget allotments for this operation it would seem that there is very little if any $ being wasted here.

I have no desire to affect any one's opinion re the 2 ranges but only point out that we should not jump to conclusions as it could adversely affect some very good men such as Mr. DeCosta.

Ron Habegger

No one wants to discredit Joe, he's a hell of a nice guy, I've talked to him many times over the years and If I recall correctly he wife Marge worked in that little shack where the packet was picked up. Both did a great job!!
 However Joe can only do so much especially with a bunch of kids that know nothing about competitive shooting. Watch them set up the range sometime, it's a joke! I'm surprised Joe was able to get it done! Much to his credit he did manage to get it set up!
 I was there one year and talked to Larry the man usually in charge of Range 4, that year he had no scoring pugs to give to his Range Officers. I gave him all I had in my box, went to commercial row and purchased all they had and gave them to Larry then returned to commercial row and ordered the remainder of the plugs needed to run the match and gave them to Larry too! He said he would be sure to collect them all and return them to me, I said no! He then said the NRA will get the donation, I said NO again I'm donating them to you! They are yours so you can have them for future matches!
 It's that stupidity that is destroying the match, a simple item like scoring plugs were not available at the National Match!
 Years ago those that ran the match were former competitive shooters now they bring in a crew from DC that don't have a clue!

Competitors should use checklists.
Pilots are required to use checklists.

just a thought

I think most shooters that go to matches have a list, the NRA needs a list because at the National Championship only the range officers can plug a target a competitor can't when scoring and only the shooter can call for a plug.

I think that Dane was more referring to the overall cost of the storage of the benches, and the storage of the target systems combined with the costs that ONG charges for our use in July.

All of those costs are borne by the NRA--which is funded by us.  When NRA is getting a bad deal, we as competitors are getting a bad deal.

i'm trying to think of any other outdoor recreation or pastime that an individual can attend a six day National Championship event for about $300 in entry fees and $13 a night for lodging.

Weather conditions are a part of many such events.  

Deal with it in an adult manner or stay at home.  Quitcherbitchin.

Hmmmm, let me tell ya what my Grand American Trapshoot cost.$300 about covered the entry fees and options for the first event! And, your there for 2 weeks!

I have no argument with most of the opnions/statements but wanted to point out that some of the critisims/accusations being expressed are  likely to harm persons just trying to run the matches as well as the can with what they are provided. 

The offer from Cardinal should at least give NRA leverage in negotiations. From what Dennis has said they are intrested in this new option.

Ron Habegger

A question not much discussed here is how are NRA & CMP going to handle their relationship in running the NM's? If NRA goes to Cardinal will the move be co-ordinated? Are shooters ready to  shoot the match's on 2 ranges? Scheduling? Where does the C-M Regional fit in all this? Will/can shooter's support 3 consecutive matches if it comes to that?


Dennis would you comment on this aspect?

james r chapman wrote:Hmmmm, let me tell ya what my Grand American Trapshoot cost.$300 about covered the entry fees and options for the first event! And, your there for 2 weeks!

I have never been to the Grand but I have seen a lot more high end RV's at the Silver Dollar Trap Events than during pistol @ Perry.

Ron Habegger

Perry has a very limited number of motor home hook up spots, thus the small quantity. I tried several years to get a spot and they were always sold out.

Trapshooters tend to come from a higher end social strata.  Some of these people think nothing of dropping $15000.00 on a Perazzi.

So do you think the pistol venders would like that..?????
And we get new shooters in the mix.... Sounds like a win win....

Wobbley wrote:Trapshooters tend to come from a higher end social strata.  Some of these people think nothing of dropping $15000.00 on a Perazzi.

Well, thank you! lol



Actually, it was bought used, but, like a 1911 I had to put a couple grand into the left handed stock....

I keep it in the back of my 2003 Town and country next to the inflatable mattress lol

Then there's James.     

Hello everyone, I did not want to hijack Dennis's thread so I have started a new one with some interesting news!!!
https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t5181-cardinal-announcement

FYI... I talked to Brad at the CMP and he suggested that the CMP will not be installing electronic targets to replace turning targets before the nationals in 2017.  Too many bugs to work out before then.