Accuracy of 38 Special from 357/38 revolver vs 38

Hi All,

I have been wanting a midrange caliber gun for awhile. Was thinking about eh SW M52 or a Colt Midrange. Starting to abandon those guns because every gunsmith I talked to says they are really a pain to maintain reliable. And from my experience you loose more points on alibis than on anything else. Now I am starting to think about a 38 special revolver. I have heard that 38 special is not as accurate from a 357mag/38spc revolver than a dedicated 38spc revolver. Is there any truth to this? I really like the SW M686 but am not sure if I want to commit if it is not as accurate as a SW M10 or the like.

Best,

Joe Landry

I've never found the difference to be anything but negligible.

just clean out the lead ring from the cylinders once in awhile.

BOB JONES A PREMIER PPC REVOLVER BUILDER ONCE TOLD ME THAT A 38SPL WILL BE MORE ACCURATE AT 50 YDS THAN A .357. HE SAID THE GROUP WOULD BE 10% SMALLER. HE PREFERRED TO BUILD ON 38SPL ONLY.

I DID TRY ONCE TO SEE. I COMPARED A BILL DAVIS PPC REVOLVER BUILT ON A S&W MDL 13 VS A BILL DAVIS PPC BUILT ON A MDL 14. THE MODEL 14 WAS MORE ACCURATE. I DON'T KNOW IF THAT WAS BY CHANCE OR NOT.

RANSOM REST TESTED BOTH AT 50 YDS 24 SHOT GROUPS.

You could have both worlds. Load .357 cases with .38 special equivalent loads. My understanding is that any loss in accuracy is because of the bullets distance from forcing cone/barrel. I have a 686 that is amazing, but a bit barrel heavy for me. I like the 14

I will go out on a limb and say that tolerances stacking up probably has a lot more effect on the accuracy then being a 38 vs 357. A Pro built 357 will outshoot most stock 38's.. A perfect world, I can see the theory behind the advantage a 38 has,, but I bet in the real world, it would come down more to prep, and the guy holding the firearm. Im in no way a pro, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but seeing all the differences from one revolver to the next, I cant see that little extra length to the cylinder will matter with the other differenced. Agean....  unless its a class build, but a top smith...

One word


PYTHON

+1 on the Python.  When I got mine 38 factory wadcutter loads would group inside the X ring easily at 25 yards.  A lot of 686s will do similar, but the Pythons were uncanny.

orpheoet wrote:You could have both worlds. Load .357 cases with .38 special equivalent loads. My understanding is that any loss in accuracy is because of the bullets distance from forcing cone/barrel. I have a 686 that is amazing, but a bit barrel heavy for me. I like the 14

Many ranges won't allow "magnum" ammo. Even if it is really downloaded, a magnum cartridge case is still considered a magnum. Also would not be eligible for DR.

There was someone who made custom PPC revolvers with cylinders shortened to only accept .38 SPL wadcutters. IIRC, it really didn't take off and I don't recall any national champs using the guns. I do recall that way, way back, the U.S. Border Patrol had a championship team and at the time they shot S&W model 19's. If the 10% accuracy claim is true, we are only talking about a couple or three tenths of an inch. I'm no smith, but I would think that other factors might have a greater impact upon accuracy than cylinder length.

I never stayed at a Holiday Inn, but I have built one or maybe two revolvers..
Bob Jones as Jim Gov mentioned would be a very hard man to dispute regarding revolvers..
A couple things to ponder... K frames, which are the most preferred and widely used revolvers, in competition,  use exactly the same sized cylinder for 38/.357 magnum..The .357 cartridge is approx. .100 longer.. Therefore, to allow for the extra length, the cylinder throat length is reduced by approx. .100.... which would actually reduce the bearing surface the bullet rides on during its transition into the forcing cone...So, how would that benefit accuracy.??  Mr. Jones is correct. The 38 base gun is preferred. A huge number of PPC guns that shot incredible scores were built on K frame Model 10s & 64s..
The only advantage the Colt has over the S&W is the 14 twist rate... The internal mechanism is a nightmare compared  the S&W. I went distinguished with a very early 586.. I struggled in the early years when lead RN ammo was issued on line.. When we were allowed to purchase factory SWC ammo on our own, and match the ammo to our guns, I began shooting 590s and quickly went distinguished with several Pres. 100s..
Here's an  innovation that helped produce some very accurate revolvers.. An old saying.. " Accuracy of the gun rotates around the cylinder"..  Just like a rifle chamber.. That cylinder must locate in a precise, solid, locked position every shot..

BE Mike wrote:There was someone who made custom PPC revolvers with cylinders shortened to only accept .38 SPL wadcutters. IIRC, it really didn't take off and I don't recall any national champs using the guns. .

Fred Schmidt APG member patented the process. Fred built approx 200 + guns  before he died in 1986. The patent was put up for sale..No one bought  it..I knew Fred, shot several of his guns, and was a close shooting companion with Lou Seigel, who did all of the testing for Fred. No overall National Championship was won to my knowledge, but a HUGE number of National class wins regional, state, and local championships plus countless Gov 20 awards were taken with Fred's guns..In the 1980s the Border Patrol and Secret Service members and teams dominated the PPC games, and of course, federal agencies, used the guns assigned or what their gun gurus dictated.
You are right, that the accuracy was not improved by the shortened cylinder process, but the lower rotating mass of the cylinder, made the rapid fire stages more controllable..All the short cylinders Fred made utilized the Taylor Throat, giving the guns an advantage over most others. The Taylor Throat was necessary to reduce the stress of projectile transition on the extended barrel tenon,  normally found in the archaic forcing cone.  Fred's guns are now more of a curio collectible status..

This topic made me go back and look at some of the Ransom Rest results that Lou (and I think you, Jerry) did with the Shortended Cylinder vs. the standard cylinder. I have scans of Lou's target book along with the load and gun information. There might not have been any national champions, but the 12 shot groups with the 6" short cylinder at 50 yards are MUCH smaller than the groups with the 5" Std. Cylinder and any flyers are MUCH closer to the X on the PPC target. 

That said the last match I shot with Lou in June, I think he used the Model 19 with std cylinder for the centerfire stage of the 2700. It shot pretty well.

jmdavis wrote:This topic made me go back and look at some of the Ransom Rest results that Lou (and I think you, Jerry) did with the Shortended Cylinder vs. the standard cylinder. I have scans of Lou's target book along with the load and gun information. There might not have been any national champions, but the 12 shot groups with the 6" short cylinder at 50 yards are MUCH smaller than the groups with the 5" Std. Cylinder and any flyers are MUCH closer to the X on the PPC target. 

That said the last match I shot with Lou in June, I think he used the Model 19 with std cylinder for the centerfire stage of the 2700. It shot pretty well.

Mike
I credit the Taylor Throat, much more than the shortened cylinder concept for the accuracy..
Few gunsmiths at the time were aware of the Taylor Throat.
It originated with Jim Stroh trying the idea of a close acquaintance who was not a gunsmith, but he was a shooter. Jim and Fred were Guild members, and the idea was shared.. It works..
The short cylinder requires an extended barrel tenon. It hangs out there with no support from the frame.. A standard forcing cone angle is subject to far more pressure than a Taylor Throat. To prevent split or cracked barrel extensions, the Taylor Throat excels..and reduces the upset and distortion of the projectile by a large margin producing better groups.

That  explains the model 19 results that I have seen too. I became interested in the load tests because I am looking for a revolver and I like to learn what I can from others. That generally saves me alot of mistakes. 

...
edited to stay on topic JMD.

Jerry
Where would I send a 25-2 and a 14 for the ultimate accuracy work?  Maybe even an OMM?

I have always held that my best SF shooting offhand has been with revolvers.  Namely a SAO 38 OMM and my very early 1955 model S&W.  When I could see the sight and hold it steady, we're talking clean with high x count.  I'm not sure I can do that anymore.

Jerry Keefer wrote:

BE Mike wrote:There was someone who made custom PPC revolvers with cylinders shortened to only accept .38 SPL wadcutters. IIRC, it really didn't take off and I don't recall any national champs using the guns. .

Fred Schmidt APG member patented the process. Fred built approx 200 + guns  before he died in 1986. The patent was put up for sale..No one bought  it..I knew Fred, shot several of his guns, and was a close shooting companion with Lou Seigel, who did all of the testing for Fred. No overall National Championship was won to my knowledge, but a HUGE number of National class wins regional, state, and local championships plus countless Gov 20 awards were taken with Fred's guns..In the 1980s the Border Patrol and Secret Service members and teams dominated the PPC games, and of course, federal agencies, used the guns assigned or what their gun gurus  dictated.
You are right, that the accuracy was not improved by the shortened cylinder process, but the lower rotating mass of the cylinder, made the rapid fire stages more controllable..All the short cylinders Fred made utilized the Taylor Throat, giving the guns an advantage over most others. The Taylor Throat was necessary to reduce the stress of projectile transition on the extended barrel tenon,  normally found in the archaic forcing cone.  Fred's guns are now more of a curio collectible status..

I hadn't considered the lesser mass of the short cylinder guns. For one who shot a model 28-2 for years double action and transitioned to a model 66, I should have picked up on that, but alas the old grey mare...The information about the Taylor Throat kindled a few sparks of memory. Thanks.

Jack H wrote:Jerry
Where would I send a 25-2 and a 14 for the ultimate accuracy work?  Maybe even an OMM?

I have always held that my best SF shooting offhand has been with revolvers.  Namely a SAO 38 OMM and my very early 1955 model S&W.  When I could see the sight and hold it steady, we're talking clean with high x count.  I'm not sure I can do that anymore.

Hello Jack
Revolver gurus are becoming more rare.. Normally I would send you to Jim Stroh.. But he has retired also..
Mark Hartshorne in PA. does a lot of revolver work, and might be a source.. Alan Tanaka in Calif. built a lot of PPC guns back in the day.. Both are Guild members, so they have the talent..
Done correctly, revolvers are often far more work than the 1911..