To brush or not

I promise... I checked and could not find a thread about this. 

I have a new Clark barrel fitting and working on my model 46.  Id like to keep it in good shape and was wondering if using a bronze brush is ok or not.  I know rifle shooters "discuss" to brush or not as much as pistol shooters "discuss" what lube is the best.  I would appreciate your thoughts.
Thanks
Doc

while I don't clean my 22 bores every time we shoot them, I do use a Bronze brush once through the bore every time I clean one to remove the carbon ring...

my process is pretty simple.. using a mixture of Hoppes and Kroil I soak the bore with a cleaning patch.. Then pass a 25 (yes 25) caliber brush once through the bore to remove any carbon ring.. followed by clean patches..

that's it if I know I'm going to shoot it the coming week.. if not I simply coat the bore with a light pass of CorrosionX for storage.

you'll love the Clark barrel

Because smallbores tended to be made with softer steels, I use nylon brushes and brass jags.  The brushe just knocks off the loose dirt.  The brushes and cleaning solvents do all the real cleaning.

On advice of Larry Carter, I just clean the chamber with a .25 caliber bronze or brass brush. I then pull a patch through from muzzle to chamber.

BE Mike wrote:On advice of Larry Carter, I just clean the chamber with a .25 caliber bronze or brass brush. I then pull a patch through from muzzle to chamber.

Yep..I never clean the bore...
But, I predict this subject will create a debate similar to the WD-40 thread..

I was told by several USAR Team shooters (Olympians and US Nat'l Team members)when I first made the team to NOT run a brush down the bore of my free pistol. They said it would affect accuracy. I took them at their word and haven't brushed my bore in over 20 years. The pistol has shot 0.400" groups at 50m. I only clean my chamber. Jerry is absolutely correct.
Jon

Remington makes a brush less bore cleaner I put some Hoppes on that and run it through. I seems to do a good job at pulling gunk out of the boar. 

Then use an old snake, no solvent to pull any excess. I then run one patch to see if its sill dirty but that seems to get everything. 

I bend a 243 brush into an L and clean the chamber if a dummy round does not drop, I will repeat but it seems to do the trick every time. 

I only clean the 22lr. if I am getting fail to ejects or if the bullet is tumbling. Seems to go about +1500 CCI Standard before needing a cleaning and maybe 800 rounds SK or Wolf. 

RT

I run a patch of kroil let it soak, then run dry patches till its clean. In my limited experience shooting compared to others here I have noticed that it takes some rounds after cleaning to get accuracy back.  I always put some rounds through the pistol before a match.

The brush isn't the problem! You want to leave the bore alone....completely! No oil or solvents. The bore has microscopic pores that the lead fills up. The bore becomes smoother and more consistant. It's also not about the brush wearing out the rifling. Fouled bore is best with the .22. I know most people can't shoot better than the clean barrel (:p), but since we are a group of shooters desiring the best results this is a proven method with no negative results.

Would you recommend different cleaning for a firearms that fires jacketed only?

Definately clean copper fouling from bore using solvents and bronze bore brush. 
Jon

The international rifle shooters clean about every 200 rounds or so.  This is to eliminate buildup which has been proven to affect accuracy.  This is from Eric Uptagrafft, http://www.uptagrafftllc.com/TB.html   Look through these FAQ.

Well, as I predicted..No matter the topic, there are yays and nays..I just got thru a BS contest over headspace  in a 1911.. Very basic, very simplistic, proven procedure, but, key board experts abound....
Now, if one has a bore scope, it's easy to determine if your barrel leads or fouls.. Good barrels, and GOOD ammo do not lead as a rule.. If your barrel leads with Eley or other HIGH quality ammo, it's the barrel..I look at barrels as I would a car tire.. If it's defective, change it.. I have studied Bill Calfee  for many years..He is one of the great .22 benchrest builders ever.. He does advocate bore cleaning if the barrel has a tendency to lead and foul..Art Cook, 1948 Gold Metal Olympic winner of 22 small bore.. Never cleaned his bore.. There are others, but I can't take the time to dig them up.. Lilja Barrels.. With out a doubt, one of the greatest .22 barrel makers in the universe recommends chamber/leade cleaning only, but not the bore...
I have never cleaned the bore of the Pardini she shoots. I have had it for 20years + and it consistently holds 50 yard groups of Eley red  @ .600/.700
and  has shot more than one 50 yard clean from the hand.
Everyone should have a plan and or strategy that gives them confidence.. go for it,  if it creates confidence..

Brush in the Chamber and then a pull through with CLP or kroil on the first patch followed by dry patches. It shoots on call. 

The choice of CLP or kroil is determined by checking to make sure that a round of the ammunition that I will use in the match will drop into the chamber without sticking. If it sticks after the CLP I brush the chamber again and try again. If it still sticks Kroil cuts wax buildup amazingly well and it will fall in and out after that. 

I've heard it from Jerry, I've heard it from Larry. I've heard it from international shooters.  We can all either learn experientially or vicariously. It sure hurts a lot less to learn from the mistakes of others.

My High Standard that I shot in the early 70s got bore cleaned once in a while.  I found that it took 20-30 shots to season it back in to good 50 yard targets.  I used Remington Green Box almost exclusively.  My mentor, LtC Miller said it was well known to not clean the bore without plans to season it after.  On the other hand, my 52 prone rifle needed cleaning after each 20 shot stage.

So, it looks like the advice from the Masters in the group is clean the chamber but leave the barrel alone.  I am off to get a .25 brush.  Thanks to all.
Doc

Those 52's were "prone" to do that.

Some comments addressing many posts from above and at least one new subject:

Larry Carter told me the following about my 208s chamber/barrel/crown cleaning, which I have on my Cleaning and Adjustments page for the 208s:

f. Clean chamber using cotton swabs first. Next use the specially formed .25 caliber brass brush by inserting it into the chamber and twisting back and forth several times.

g. Place a patch on the nylon cord and pull it through the bore threading the cord from the chamber through to the muzzle. A patch should be sufficient, however if a brush must be used, do the following: Place the empty rod carefully through the bore from muzzle to chamber first. Next screw the brush onto the rod. Finally, PULL the brush through the bore from chamber to muzzle. Repeat patch procedure. NEVER push a brush through the barrel in either direction.

h. If the crown needs cleaning, use the cloth only. Note that if the dirt pattern is clearly visible, it should show close to perfect symmetry.

The direction Larry told me, from chamber to muzzle, is a "for sure."  I was taking these notes for the page and I didn't like the idea of dragging the chamber debris through the bore after the chamber brushing.  But, he was adamant about everything traveling through the bore in the one direction, chamber to muzzle, only.

Be careful with bore snakes.  Many of them have an integral brass brush.  I have also been told, but never verified that the snake and nylon cord (mentioned above) should always be pulled from directly parallel to the bore, so that you aren't subjecting the transition from bore to crown to any undue abrasive action.  Perhaps Jerry or Jon may have a comment on this.

On the subject of seasoning, it is ammo specific, or at least brand specific, but unless you're shooting high 880's and above, you might not notice.  I bring this up because some of us shoot different ammunition for leagues/training and matches.  If you shoot CCI for your league and Tenex for your matches, you should put at least 30 rounds of the Eley through before the match.  It will actually tighten your 50 yard groups.  Maybe another HM (or gunsmith) can tell if my eye is turning brown yet.

In my experience I might have minor sight change from one brand of ammo to the next, but since I don't clean my bore my zero is always spot on. My first shot is a 10 probably 95+% of the time and always on call 100%. I don't think wild shots from cleaning are as prevalent as most shooters make it out to be. I think it's more of a shooter error than a clean bore issue. As far as bore wear from cleaning off axis goes, I haven't dove into that realm of study. Jerry probably knows about that.
Jon

I am also in the camp of not cleaning a .22 barrel.
Only .22 ammo I own is CCI-SV, Center X, Eley red and black box.
Never any leading.
Only clean the chambers to get rid of the crud ring and compressed air to remove said crud.

Clarence

Jon Eulette wrote:In my experience I might have minor sight change from one brand of ammo to the next, but since I don't clean my bore my zero is always spot on. My first shot is a 10 probably 95+% of the time and always on call 100%. I don't think wild shots from cleaning are as prevalent as most shooters make it out to be. I think it's more of a shooter error than a clean bore issue. As far as bore wear from cleaning off axis goes, I haven't dove into that realm of study. Jerry probably knows about that.
Jon

I don't have wild shots from the bore being clean, since I don't actually do a real clean, just enough to pull the chamber debris out.  But, I do have larger groups and sometimes actual feeding issues depending on changing ammunition brands.  One specific, odd, and yet reproducible function trouble when I was still on the Team, was when I tried to use Tenex at 50 yards and SK Pistol Match at 25 yards without cleaning the chamber, which I don't normally do mid-match.  Every time I tried that, the second round of SK in the very first magazine of NMC Timed Fire would jam.  I mentioned this to the Team Captain and found out he had the exact same experience with his 208s and the same ammo change.  Of course we were shooting the same lots of Eley and SK and the guns were nearly identical.

Ed Hall wrote:

... Next use the specially formed .25 caliber brass brush by inserting it into the chamber and twisting back and forth several times.

So, this seems to be an accepted method of cleaning the chamber on a .22, but I've always been told that you should never attempt to reverse directions with a bronze brush while it's in the barrel.  But in this case, it sounds like that's exactly what you're doing (being L-shaped, I don't see that there's any other choice but to reverse directions and yank it out back the way it came).  Or am I missing something here?


Also, which do you do several times?  Do you insert it once, and twist it back and forth several times (by this, I assume you mean rotate the brush while it's in the chamber), and then remove it?   Or do you insert it several times, and each time you do that, you twist it back and forth?  If so, about how many times?  2? 4? 10?  The English language isn't always sufficiently precise.

On your website that you're quoting from, it also says:
"It is made by bending a .25 caliber bore brush at a right angle so that the tip length matches the length of an empty .22 case."
If the tip is the length of an empty case, won't it be too short to reach most of the fouling that you're trying to get out?  I would think that the area between the top of the empty casing and the start of the rifling would be where the deposits are worst.  Or is that not an issue, and what you're really trying to clean out with this brush are the deposits in the back part of the chamber that could "grab" the empty casing and lead to extraction failures?

Inquiring minds want to know.

The instructions work. If you bend the brush as suggested and brush the chamber you will be fine and greatly reduce your chance of feed related alibis. You brush the chamber, run a pull through (wet with solvent or not) and then run a couple of dry patches. THEN you check the chamber by dropping in a round while the removed barrel or slide is pointing down. If it seats you are good, if not, repeat the process and if you didn't use any solvent before use a bit on the patch this time. 

The difference between reversing the brush in the chamber and reversing the brush in the rifling is fairly significant. You can't damage rifling that is not there.

@bdas:

You are technically correct and the bristles of the remaining shaft also limit the depth of the tip portion's penetration.  In practice, I do take into account the start of the bristles at the tip, but not the bristles past the bend.  That gives a little "safety" margin, since the later bristles will flatten some.  As to how much twisting action, I give it a good roughing up - in once, back and forth several - out once.  I don't use any solvents anywhere on the gun, as Larry was against any liquid that could make its way into the hammer sear area and wash out the moly.

So after the brushing of the chamber, do you use a dry patch pushed through with a jag from the chamber end?