Electronic Targets for Pistol at CMP Range

by Axehandle 2/28/2016, 4:25 pm

First topic message reminder :

The CMP range at Talledega ran a shakedown 2700 on 27 Feb on electronic targets... The guys I've heard from had lots of positive things to say..

by bmize1 3/1/2016, 11:59 pm

It was about 4hrs. Took about 15min between each gun and had several short delays for discussions.
I think once they get it going and iron out the details it should be about 3hrs for a full 2700
At my home club we always shoot 2700 and it takes about 5+ hrs.

by Sa-tevp 3/2/2016, 4:52 am

john bickar wrote:Can you see the lights through a 1" Ultradot?

I'm 5'10" and used a 1" Ultradot with extension tube center mounted on my Nelson Conversion and on my Range Officer. I could see the red light above the target and the green light below the target at 50 yards, but both were blocked by the sight at 25 yards when I had the dot on the center of the target. It was easy to see the lights on the adjacent targets at 25 yards, so just a surprise at the first Timed Fire in the 22 NMC.

Before this I had only shot Service Pistol and 22 EIC on these targets in December. The target frames got shot up a lot in Service Pistol and As-Issued.

by Magnusbullets 3/2/2016, 10:00 am

Yes, see lights on 1 inch
We started at9.am, with 10 minute or so question answer meeting at the tower. Started match, 15 minutes between guns, done little before 2 PM. Some delays to fix lights on couple targets, the line officer goes down, opens the target frame, moves or adjust something on the light and they work, all these at 25 yd.
Few short delay for alibi, scoring questions or gun change out. I think on a good day 4 hours to shoot 2700.
I had no shoulder problem. Did not hear any complaints from army team.
When you zoom in you see the normal be target. So far I like. Accuracy of scoring software was a question of some I talked to. If you do your job and keep your focus, concentration on the dot, you won't worry about the target or lights.

by Skeet6 3/2/2016, 1:12 pm

I think I like paper for Timed and Rapid Fire on a turning target. How am I going to post a clean target on my shop wall?

See post below yours by bmize1. Just have center line print you out a plot sheet - I've only shot the rifle range, but I would imagine they can do it on the pistol range too!
Mike B

by jmdavis 3/2/2016, 1:17 pm

A printout of a target is not the same as a target.

My only experience with e-targets is airgun. And, I liked them for that. But airgun targets don't need to turn, are all shot slowfire, and have many years of successful testing and use.

by john bickar 3/2/2016, 7:19 pm

Thanks for the replies. I've shot hundreds of thousands of rounds on electronic targets, but none with a bullseye gun, or a red dot. I've also done a lot of maintenance on them, and I know the limits of their reliability (granted, that experience is now a decade out-of-date).

Rapid Fire relays at World Cups went from 45 minutes to ~20 minutes with the switch to electronic targets. And 45 minutes was with a trained scoring team coming out from the pits, not competitors walking downrange to kibbutz, cry over their target, complain, forget their pen, and score a target somewhere in there.

Fatigue and being able to see the lights were the two things I was curious about.

by jmdavis 3/3/2016, 9:11 am

John,

Do you have any opinion on lights vs. the turning target?

I like the e-targets for the airgun, which is where all of my experience is. But I do like the turning target.

by Magnusbullets 3/3/2016, 12:33 pm

At this point , either one works for me. Turning more if a challenge.

by john bickar 3/3/2016, 7:51 pm

jmdavis wrote:John,

Do you have any opinion on lights vs. the turning target?

I like the e-targets for the airgun, which is where all of my experience is. But I do like the turning target.

You get more time with electronics vs. turning, and the timing is more consistent. Visual reaction time to a turn vs. light change is the same.

From a pure shooting experience standpoint, I prefer electronics. But there are other significant considerations, especially for bullseye.

by Ed Hall 3/4/2016, 8:33 am

john bickar wrote:You get more time with electronics vs. turning, and the timing is more consistent. Visual reaction time to a turn vs. light change is the same.
...

Fairly sure I don't agree with this fully. You can shoot during the turning time and the skidder still counts and there are some pretty slow turners out there. Additionally, I sometimes find the light more abrupt and startling than a turn which takes a short moment.

by Magnusbullets 3/4/2016, 9:39 am

I agree, I seemed to like the lights.
Get on dot and get it done, not watch target move etc.

by DavidR 3/4/2016, 10:28 am

Shooting on them to me seemed easier than conventional targets. I would not be surprised if once registered approved matches begin it will yield records being broken and shooters will move up in class faster. Question is that really fair to change the game and allow records shot on paper to be allowed to be broken on electronic. But I guess its been done already by allowing red dots and now changing all the rules for CMP matches. Kind of like T-ball for kids who cant hit a thrown ball, just make it easier so more will play.

by dronning 3/4/2016, 11:51 am

DavidR wrote:Shooting on them to me seemed easier than conventional targets.

Remember this game is 95% mental, if they seemed easier to you, then they were. Shooting on an electronic target verses paper should yield no advantage. As far as the use of a dot goes, Anderson's 2680-159 (open sights) still stands as the record and we have had 42 years to break it.

- Dave

by john bickar 3/4/2016, 12:49 pm

Ed Hall wrote:
john bickar wrote:You get more time with electronics vs. turning, and the timing is more consistent. Visual reaction time to a turn vs. light change is the same.
...
Fairly sure I don't agree with this fully. You can shoot during the turning time and the skidder still counts and there are some pretty slow turners out there. Additionally, I sometimes find the light more abrupt and startling than a turn which takes a short moment.

International rules call for -0/+0.2. So electronic targets give you nominal time +0.2 (e.g., 4.2 seconds for the 4-second series in rapid fire). And the target is facing you 100% of that time with electronics. Remember also that I'm primarily talking about international events, where the targets turn a lot faster than bullseye. But then, there's no lift in bullseye either.

Plus, every bullseye range I've shot on has a different duration for a 10-second rapid fire string Smile

by Jack H 3/4/2016, 2:00 pm

I likes them 12 second rapids. I stop watched a range one time. Showed my watch to the RO. He gave me one of those mind your own business looks. This was a regional.

by Vern 3/4/2016, 3:22 pm

Are there any videos of an actual pistol match available?

by s1120 3/4/2016, 3:36 pm

DavidR wrote: Not everyone will have a good experience, range info stated you must be a sharpshooter or above to compete but Sarah the match coordinator said that was a mistake and marksman would be included in future info, that said I'm sure as marksmen many have hit the target frames which is a big no-no, do it twice and you are DQ and asked to leave the line.

My only thing is that your learning to shoot turning targets at the club level. Then when you get to the nationals your shooting a totally different style target. And if the E targets filter down, but running into the problem quoted for the new guys getting started.

by DavidR 3/4/2016, 5:01 pm

s1120 wrote:
DavidR wrote: Not everyone will have a good experience, range info stated you must be a sharpshooter or above to compete but Sarah the match coordinator said that was a mistake and marksman would be included in future info, that said I'm sure as marksmen many have hit the target frames which is a big no-no, do it twice and you are DQ and asked to leave the line.

My only thing is that your learning to shoot turning targets at the club level. Then when you get to the nationals your shooting a totally different style target. And if the E targets filter down, but running into the problem quoted for the new guys getting started.

I doubt we ever see electronic targets at the nationals unless they move them to Alabama! NRA went down that road for perry last year and imo the conclusion was WOW that's a lot of money we could be spending somewhere else. lol!

by Jack H 3/4/2016, 5:23 pm

Not a totally educated opinion, but from what I understand so far....

1. E targets for Bullseye/Precision, a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
2. Practicality. Considering $$$ for capital outlay, maintenance, especially at the club level, not gonna happen.
3. Considering glitches and maintenance for frame, missed and flyer shots (very discouraging to noobs). I bet in the long run 45 calibre will cause much grief.
4. Concern over training on lights or turns. BS, adapt.
5. Requiring verifiers seems to be a step in the wrong direction

by john bickar 3/4/2016, 7:56 pm

Jack H wrote:Not a totally educated opinion, but from what I understand so far....

1. E targets for Bullseye/Precision, a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
2. Practicality. Considering $$$ for capital outlay, maintenance, especially at the club level, not gonna happen.
3. Considering glitches and maintenance for frame, missed and flyer shots (very discouraging to noobs). I bet in the long run 45 calibre will cause much grief.
4. Concern over training on lights or turns. BS, adapt.
5. Requiring verifiers seems to be a step in the wrong direction

Couldn't agree more.

by s1120 3/5/2016, 6:40 am

Jack H wrote:Not a totally educated opinion, but from what I understand so far....

3. Considering glitches and maintenance for frame, missed and flyer shots (very discouraging to noobs). I bet in the long run 45 calibre will cause much grief.

Ya that was my point. I mean the new guy [errr...ie me Smile

] is already worried about so much when they start out. Just imange the mental stress the first time they line up to shoot the 45 at the long line, knowing two missed shots and your out... Being that not only is the guy newer... might have never shot at 50 yards, might not have a ton of rounds behind the 45, and might not have the best 45 either... perfect storm to drive new blood away...

More on topic though... I do like some of the things the E targets bring.. Having that screen showing your hits is a pretty cool thing. The thought that its dropping shots though... at the point they are at, that is not the type of failure they should be having. that should have been ironed out before they hit the market.

by **Wobbley** 3/5/2016, 7:12 am

Here we go again...

Those who have shot on e-targets either like doing so or think the targets can become no factor.

Those who have not don't like them because they " change the sport" or "are too costly" or "make the championships different than club matches".

Sure it changes things but does anyone want to go back to the pistol rules of 1945? As for cost, maybe, but I bet it won't be long for a enterprise to bring e targets to a price point where individuals or clubs can afford some. The national championships are now and always have been different than club matches.

As for practice, it won't take a programming genius to create a tablet or phone app to run a two light setup that you'll be able to place over or under a standard target for practice.

by Sa-tevp 3/5/2016, 9:47 am

If I remember the lay-out correctly, Range 3 had thirty shooting positions with Kongsberg electronic targets on the first 25 positions. There were four or five iron target frames for beginners in the last positions. I don't think the frames at 25 yards turned.

by DavidR 3/6/2016, 3:18 pm

Sa-tevp wrote:If I remember the lay-out correctly, Range 3 had thirty shooting positions with Kongsberg electronic targets on the first 25 positions. There were four or five iron target frames for beginners in the last positions. I don't think the frames at 25 yards turned.

Those 5 targets were only for being qualified to compete if you were not a classified NRA shooter, is what Sarah said they would not be used in a match. If you can drop 10 inside the scoring rings on the standard NRA 50 and 25 yard targets you could compete. She didn't say if you couldn't if or how many times you could try.

by Jack H 3/6/2016, 3:58 pm

DavidR wrote:
Sa-tevp wrote:If I remember the lay-out correctly, Range 3 had thirty shooting positions with Kongsberg electronic targets on the first 25 positions. There were four or five iron target frames for beginners in the last positions. I don't think the frames at 25 yards turned.
Those 5 targets were only for being qualified to compete if you were not a classified NRA shooter, is what Sarah said they would not be used in a match. If you can drop 10 inside the scoring rings on the standard NRA 50 and 25 yard targets you could compete. She didn't say if you couldn't if or how many times you could try.

I am glad to see the post by Dennis nearby.

But I have a followup question. Were (are) the e targets usage going to have a disqualification if you have two frame hits. Is that written somewhere. Or is it speculation? The above quote indicates some sort of qualification. Please explain.

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