Sightron red dots

First topic message reminder :

I'm fed up with the ultradot Has anyone tried the sightron red dots

Paul

I got my Sightron S350-5 yesterday. I was somewhat impressed with the quality, it looked good. Rings look good but I would have to mount them on a Weaver base and see how it fits.
 Compared it to my 9000SC today. Placing both on a stable base (my forklift, solid tire and weight is 6 tons) Placing myself at an eye distance equal to that of having it mounted on a Pistol adjusting the height so it was the same as if shooting Bullseye. I checked negative magnification, Non was noticeable in either scope. Moving my head so that the dot moved from extreme left to extreme right I could not detect any parallax, the dot stayed in the same location on the target. Then extreme top to extreme bottom. The S350-5's did not move from extreme bottom to about 95% toward the top extreme. Above that I noticed a little movement but nothing major. Probably from the middle of the actual X as printed to the target to the top of that X. I did the same with the 9000Sc, the results were the same except the 9000SC had the slight movement at the extreme bottom and maybe slightly less than the S350-5. I also checked all other locations, 7:00 to 1:00 8:00 to 2:00 etc.,etc. and the only slight movement was noticed at the 12:00 to 6:00 as mentioned above. Seems that parallax is very good on at least the scopes I have thought neither scope has been mounted on a pistol and shot. Dot on both scopes looked good somewhat better on the S350. Star burst does occur when intensity is turned up, I tested them on an Overcast day, no bright Sun as it was hidden by the clouds. Intensity was so that the dot was very easy to see. Dot size on the 350 is larger than the 9000 but as Walt said the 5 minute dot looks more like 4 I'm thinking 3+ so I'm OK with it. As far a brightness control the 350 is far better that the 9000! Even inside when the light is low I have to turn it to a 5, heck I can't even see the dot in the first few settings and the battery is new! Half the range is wasted in night applications, Good for a Midnight outdoor match with no moon maybe.
 Simply put so far I am happy with the S350-5, If they have that 20% off again I will buy another unless something changes when I mount and shoot with it.

Shot the state indoor last weekend with a match dot II on a marvel conversion. Dropped about 20 points and lost yhe match. Nothing was going to call. Was about to sell everything was so frustrated. Started cleaning the marvel and the rear lens fell out of the ultradot... I own three ultradots, and all have been back for warranty repair...

I'm through with them too...

I'm not familiar with the construction but what I'm reading is that the Multi-reticle type red dots seem to have more problems than the single dot type. I have an older version MatchDot that only has dot size change. No NM or noticeable Parallax at 50 yards but I never checked it on the larger dot options. Was not interested in larger dot but purchased it from a guy at the range that used it one time then switched to Aim Point Micro. At the time I was having problems with an old well used UD that should have been replaced long before. He offered it to me for $100 so I took it! Sixftunda had major parallax with the multi-reticle type Sightron but I found none on the S350-5 single dot model.

sixftunda wrote:Ordered a Sightron last week and just finished a range session with it. It will be sent back. The parallax is horrible. The dot has to be dead center in the glass or shots will not be on call. If you hold the gun still and move your head the dot will warp as you move around. 
At the long line I figured out I could hold the dot at the bottom of the glass, shoot at the 8 ring at 6:00 and the bullet would go in the x-ring.

To be clear, my only experience with Sightron red dots is with the S30-5 model that I previously recommended. I have had no problems with them, negative magnification, parallax, reliability, or otherwise. I am only speculating here, but is it possible that some of these multi-reticle (crosshairs, circle-dots, etc) scopes are intended more for the more popular AR-15 platform use, and therefore have parallax focus set at a longer range?

Walt

I have one question about Sightron red dots scopes. Probably due to some kind of spyware if I look at an item I get advertisements for it. Being I did search and eventually buy a S350-5 from Optics Planet I'm getting ads for the Sightron 1X27. Looks the same as the S350-5 but at more than double the cost. Is it the same or is it another Model?  Looking at the details no Model is given.

I just received an email from optics planet that my sightron red dot has shipped.
Tom

10sandxs wrote:Shot the state indoor last weekend with a match dot II on a marvel conversion. Dropped about 20 points and lost yhe match. Nothing was going to call. Was about to sell everything was so frustrated. Started cleaning the marvel and the rear lens fell out of the ultradot... I own three ultradots, and all have been back for warranty repair...

I'm through with them too...

Hey Rob,
Here I thought you were taking shooting hints from me, and ONLY dropped 20 points.


Seriously tho, I'm running 8 of the 1" UD's now on a variety of 45's & 22's.  I've only had issues with my first one, in 2002 at Perry of course.  Couldn't get a shot to go on call to save anything.  Luckily Larry's was there and took care of it within a half hour.  Said it was the tension spring.

I guess I'm ok with that, it had nearly 20,000 rds of 45 wad through it on a slide mount.  Still runs just fine on one of my MKII's. Just got nervous about it when it hit about 30,000 rds of 45. 

al

Which UDs do you have Al? I had the older models too and didn't have problems except the issue that after a season of shooting a change in elevation caused a windage change too or vice versa. Otherwise the older models worked great. It's the newer models that seem to have problems.

Most of them are at least 5 yrs old, some are 10-15.  But a couple are new ones.  Those are the ones with slight image sizing issues.

After reading all of the above and having some free time today I did some testing. I have enough Ultradots (I think) to give a fair sampling.

1 HD Micro  NoSN     Has reduction

1 MatchDot II 30mm   NoSN    Has reduction

1 4 Dot 30mm  SN 013155     Has reduction

4  UltraDot dist 30mm  017250-025630   All have reduction

4  UltraDot dist 1"   123983-127401   Oldest 123983 does not have reduction. The rest do.

2 Oakshore dist 1"  041950-08????   No reduction

Conclusion: As mentioned before the older UltraDot have no reduction.

In the interest of impartiality I decided to look at some scopes other than UltraDot. I don't have a lot of them but here are the results.

Adco 1" older scope  No reduction

Adco 30mm  2 years old  No reduction

Adco 35mm  2 years old Has significant reduction

Millet 30mm older scope  No reduction but blue tint

Burris Speeddot 135  2 years old  Has reduction

The red dot was a rifle sight but when the Aimpoint was used and won the national match everyone wanted it. Soon everyone was making red dots! The pistol shooter made them money and now they seem to be back on the rifle side making them for the AR since all the ads I see the dot is mounted on an AR!

Hi, Two questions,
- Whats the actual real world affect of a dot that has negative reduction?
- How much negative reduction is being observed?

Stan

Stan,

If you shoot only at 25 yards or 50 feet, the negative magnification might not be noticeable to you. I dry fire indoors on a 10 meter air pistol bull from about 30 feet away and can easily recognize the scopes that reduce that bull by first looking at the bullseye black and then bringing the scope into view. 

At 50 yards, the reduction is much more apparent - at 50 yards, the bull is small enough with no reduction!. I would estimate you are seeing about 90% of the actual size, or 0.9X magnification. I'd be interested in what other's perceive the reduction to be.

Walt

The negative reduction makes the target look smaller. In my opinion it makes it seem harder to hold at 50 yds. 25 it doesn't bother me too much. It has made me wish you could get a 1.25X scope.
Jon

Jon Eulette wrote:The negative reduction makes the target look smaller. In my opinion it makes it seem harder to hold at 50 yds. 25 it doesn't bother me too much. It has made me wish you could get a 1.25X scope.
Jon

A friend has an early 1" UltraDot (before they had click adjustments) that has slight magnification. The bull looks huge at 25 yards. I keep pestering him to sell it to me

Walt

I keep pestering him to sell it to me

Walt[/quote]

Pestering works! I have a couple pistols from a friend that I never would have got without asking him to put me at the top of the list. Good luck!
Jon

As for myself I haven't really noticed much reduction at 25 yards, thought there is some it didn't bother me. However at 50 yards it is quite disturbing. Shooting with both eyes open I can easily see the targets on either side but the one in my scope looks smaller and seems farther away, probably optical illusion due to size reduction yet the dot size remained the same. I had one scope that reduced the target about 25% possibly more. The result was my arc of movement seem larger. Not sure why but I seem to shoot better at 50 yards with a scope that does not have reduction.

I had a Burris fast fire 3 slide mounted for a time. It has about 1.25 or 1.5 magnification and yes the target looks bigger. But the dot quality wasn't as good as the UD that I had before it.

Placed Venom red-dot sight on two G34 Gen4 MOS pistols.  Make sure to use store-bought 6mm bolts and Blue Loctite.
When sighting in, I took carful notice of parallax at 25 yards and at 50 yards.  At least within the middle 80%, I saw essentially no shift.
The sight's controls are easy to use - unlike those of Burris FF3.  and its dot seems closer to the barrel even when centered . . .

I have used UD for many years and now I will look for the things mentioned here.  . . just a data point . . .    Mac

I have the EOTech MRD similar to the Venom (Actually made by Insight). Having too much Parallax in the Micro from Bushnell I started searching for a small scope to put on my AW. My son Adam told me that the Aimpoint Micros they were using had parallax and other issues, were removed and replaced with the 9000SC. I checked a friends UD Micro and didn't like it. So I called EOTech, they referred me to Insight and gave me the number to call. I did call and was treated like a valued customer!! Though the parallax information was not available to the person I talked to they had someone call me back with the information. I received the engineering test results that listed parallax at various yards, at 25 and 50 yards it was so little it's not worth mentioning and no Neg. Mag.. I purchased it and it was every bit as was described. I used the Doctor mount. Only Issue I had was the openness of the reflex type sight, I was concerned with performance at Perry. Another friend at my club had the Primary Arms Micro MD-ADS, it too had very little parallax but with some noticeable neg. Mag., has the bluish tint in the lens. I purchased one from Joe Chambers, Mounted it on the AW however I made the base, it's supposed to fit Weaver/ Picatinny base does but to me it isn't quite right so I made and exact fit base. Works good with some NM But not in the Rain as I found out at Perry. I have since removed it and put the Insight back on.
 BTW Len, The Rings for the Sightron S30-5 are not split vertically, Horz. split across the scope tube with 2 Hex Caps screws, 1 on either side. Attachment to the base is very similar to Weaver, fits the Weaver base well though the screw is a bit exposed and the base might need some minor modification to the clamp screw slot. I tried one ring on a new Weaver base I have, screw fit into one slot but other slot is a touch shallow. Should fit Picatinny without problems. Looks like a piece of linen is glued to the top and bottom of the split to get a tight fit on the tube. Will have to put a Mic. on the scope tube and Ring bore to see how well they match.

Froneck has provided a lot of information.  Here is my sorting of the various sights mentioned:
EoTech MRDS open (reflex) sight; 3.5MOA dot; 4 levels; 1MOA clicks 0.9 oz.  twice the price of Venom
Vortex Venom open (reflex) sight; 3MOA dot; 10 levels; 1MOA clicks; 1.1 oz.; 1.9" long
In the rain at Camp Perry, open (reflex) sights can encounter issues.

Primary Arms MD-ADS 2.4" tube sight; 2MOA dot; 10 levels; 0.5MOA clicks; 3.9 oz. no more than third cost of similar H-1
Airmpoint 9000SC 6" tube sight; 2 or 4 MOA dot; 10 levels; 0.5 MOA clicks; 7.4 oz.  about same price as MRDS
Aimpoint H-1 2.4" tube sight; 2 or 4 MOA dot; 12 levels; 0.5 MOA clicks; 3 oz.  expensive

I do not know what an "AW" is nor how long a sight it can/should hold.  The 9000SC seems too long for pistol use.  For a sight to be mounted on pistol slide, light and short is good - if sight has good ergonomics and reliability.  Of great value is Froneck's passing on issues with what I take to be Aimpoint H-1 (or T-1) sights as I am on the waiting list to have a 1911 crafted for my wife's big Christmas gift that smith expects to mount H-1.  Sound as if, for bullseye, the MD-ADS might actually be a better choice.  Comments?

Not clear if MD-ADS is too long to fit on the MOS slide cuts being offered by several manufacturers.  Does anyone know?

Thanks,    Mac

My current sight in while waiting g for the UD to get fixed is a vortex sparc II. it is close to the length of the aimpoint micro class but a fraction of the cost. The field of view is small, but there is no negative mag on it. The dot is ok, but I seem to see a tail when I'm not concentrating right. Could be my eyes. I didn't like it at first, but after a few hundred rounds it's grown on me and I may leave it on the marvel. If the UD on my 45 acts up anymore, it might get a vortex too...

Sorry I wasn't clear. The AW is a Feinwerkbau AW93, the way it's built there is not much room to mount a full size scope. I guess I can make a mount but I'm working on a MatchGun by Morini. So far all the changes and modifications I made to the AW are removable. The pistol can be returned to 100% original, no extra holes or metal removed anywhere.  Yes I'm referring to the Aimpoint H1. As I mentioned the AMU team has removed them because of parallax and other problems. Your right the 9000SC is long but the AMU mounted them on Hammerli 208S and 1911 slide mount plus extension tubes.

Dear Froneck:    I am off to a local match so I will be too brief. . . .
You cleared up remaining uncertainties.   Many thanks.   I shoot a 208s and it just did not occur to me until  your note that the sight I am using on it might be about as long as 9000SC.  On a 1911 center-fire pistol's slide is something that needs a quiet thought.  Some more to think about.  You are sure to have helped others on this group too.
Warm regards,    Mac

Being the AMU will test just about everything available and select the best of the items getting information from them helps me eliminate spending money on what is not as good as is claimed. Being those shooter are part of the small group of shooter that can be considered the best in the country I'm willing to listen to them. I guess it's good to have a son that is part of that group and now the coach I can get inside information. Though some I will not pass along so as not to put my son in a bad position or start arguments here.
 Time and money does not allow me to compare all the sights available and being the AMU has put the 9000SC at the top of the list I purchased one and will compare others to it that I have or borrowed. So far the Sightron S30-5 seems to compare favorably to the more expensive 9000SC however it has not been mounted yet and tested by shooting.
 I might add that since my son Adam was shooting the tryout and made the team for Mayleigh Cup I was there to watch. I reported on the guns used in another topic however Zins was the only shooter with a Micro, the Army shooter had the 9000SC. As far as I could tell thought I did not walk the line and inspect each sight at close range they all looked to have UD's older versions. Here's something to consider when purchasing the Aimpoint Micro H1. Aimpoing gave the AMU a few to test, installed on Hendersons guns and worked flawless and continues to work great. The AMU then purchased 4 per shooter and a few spares. All of those gave them problems! As Adam stated if the complaint came from an average shooter it could be overlooked but when all of the AMU top shooters are complaining there is a problem!