Springfield XD for outdoor bullseye???

I'm sure many of you received the latest CMP shooters news, did anyone see the ad about Springfield giving away up to 20 pistols for competitors firing in the Presidents match?

...All you have to do do be in the drawing is make the Presidents hundred using an XD or XDM...

"Springfield Armory will potentially donate up to 20 new Springfield XD(M)® 5.25" pistols during the President's Pistol Match on July 17, to competitors who place in the Top 100 (President's 100) and fire the 20 highest scores using a Springfield XD® or XD(M)® during the match. Competitors MUST have competed with a Springfield XD® or XD(M)® in order to receive an XD(M) 5.25"."

Does anyone think they could shoot a good enough score with a polymer, striker fired gun to make the list? It seems like a tall order, but I guess for guys who've made the list a bunch of times it might be incentive enough to give it a shot.

I have both a 9MM & a .45ACP XD(M) 5.25".  They both are capable of shooting P100 scores based on the last few years cut scores anyway.

I've never made the P100 but I signed up for the P100 and listed my 9MM XD(M) as the firearm I would be using.  Why the 9MM, the 9MM fits my hand better than the 45.

- Dave

dronning wrote:I signed up for the P100 and listed my 9MM XD(M) as the firearm I would be using. 

- Dave

Have you tried 147gr xtp's in it?

I agree that the XD is capable of putting up P100 scores. I've done quite well with mine at 25 yards in numerous competitions. I have also seen several of the XD-45s that shoot in the 90s at 50 yards.

rreid wrote:

dronning wrote:I signed up for the P100 and listed my 9MM XD(M) as the firearm I would be using. 

- Dave

Have you tried 147gr xtp's in it?

The 115 XTP & FMJ both can clean the short line and do well on the long line.  I'll have to give the 147's a try.

- Dave

mtlucas0311 wrote:Does anyone think they could shoot a good enough score with a polymer, striker fired gun to make the list? It seems like a tall order, but I guess for guys who've made the list a bunch of times it might be incentive enough to give it a shot.

I don't know what the cut scores are (an internet search said "around 350"), but my Walther PPQ 9mm M2 5" (which is a polymer, striker-fired gun) is capable of shooting in the 90's for slow fire.  My personal best in a match is 94, but low 90's are not unusual.  That's using Speer Lawman 124gr round-nose factory ammo.  I'm sure I could do better if I mounted a red dot on it. I happen to stink at timed and rapid fire with 9mm and 45 (see also: I'm still a Marksman), but the gun is undoubtedly capable of shooting mid or high 90's on a regular basis in more capable hands. The short, positive reset on the PPQ almost feels like cheating in rapid fire. 

If I had the money, I'd get a Walther Q5 Match, mount a red dot on it, do some ammo testing, and see if it's better for centerfire than my Springfield Range Officer .45.  It wouldn't surprise me if it was. (But then again, if we're in la-la land where money is no object, what I'd really like to try is a Pardini .32 for CF.)

When you guys say the gun is "capable" of...do you mean you've put it in a rest or shot off bags? Or you've actually hung it out there with one hand and shot scores (at least semi regularly) in the 90's? I'm sure in a rest the guns are capable of good scores, but that's only half the equation. I see a whole lot of good shooters fall apart on the timed and rapid in the DR match because they have to shoot double action. Triggers are a personal thing, but most of the polymer guns feel like a Mooshy two stage trigger to me. I'm mainly curious if anybody has shot a few NMC's and how the scores compared to traditional target guns.

I've gotten good results one handed in matches with mine. It all comes down to the trigger. The one I have has a superb trigger.

bdas wrote:I don't know what the cut scores are (an internet search said "around 350")

Pres 100 Cutoff
2016   ???
2015   352-4
2014   339-5
2013   344-4

Between 2003 and 2015 the max score is 355-7 and the min score is 339-5 (weather was bad in 2014). Average is 349.

DeweyHales wrote:I've gotten good results one handed in matches with mine. It all comes down to the trigger. The one I have has a superb trigger.

+1 but only in practice matches so far.  My trigger is just over 4 1/2lbs and smooth as glass.  It feels every bit as good as my 1911 triggers, they all have a long roll, the XD is just a little longer.

- Dave

SteveT wrote:
Pres 100 Cutoff
2016   ???
2015   352-4
2014   339-5
2013   344-4

Between 2003 and 2015 the max score is 355-7 and the min score is 339-5 (weather was bad in 2014). Average is 349.

Dang, Gina. Times have changed.

I walked back into the hut in 1992 and my hut-mate, Dennis Jayes, said, "What'd you shoot?" I said, "360" (can't remember the X-count).

Dennis said, "That just might friggin' work."

I made the cut by Xs.

Why are scores so much lower when the rules make the course of fire so much easier now?

Nobody is shooting bullseye anymore. Everybody is shooting the tactical matches. The most common excuse I hear is "it's too hard". Then usually "50 yards??? Do you mean 50 feet?" Or "you can only use one hand?". Nobody wants to shoot beyond 20 feet from what I've seen at open shooting events at my club. They set up at target at about 10 feet and blaze away. I think most of them are engaging some type of "call of duty" fantasy.

deweyhales and dronning, what scores have you shot in the practice matches? What kind of scores do you shoot with a 1911 or M9 variant? Do you find certain advantage with the XD's in any stage? I don't like a trigger to have a roll at the end, mines set up to break like glass at the end, might be why I don't care much for the polymer guns. Also, did you guys change the sights over to target sights?

Regards,
Mike

Why doesn't Springfield give away the pistols to anyone making the cut shooting a SA Range Officer.  That is the group they should be promoting to at this match.

Doug

I thought the exact same thing when I read the ad. The only thing I can come up with is they're trying to get fresh blood into the matches and figure a whole lot more people have XD's and XDM's than anything else. I would have thought they'd just make it a lottery of all the competitors using Springfield inc. pistols rather than stipulating Presidents 100 shooters if their goal is new blood though. Don't imagine many new shooters making the cut in the first place, much less with a polymer gun. That's what made me post in the first place. I thought perhaps I was underestimating the polymer guns.

I'm glad Springfield is actively involved in the match. Maybe they want to show case that a shooter can place with a XD

mtlucas0311 wrote:
deweyhales and dronning, what scores have you shot in the practice matches? What kind of scores do you shoot with a 1911 or M9 variant? Do you find certain advantage with the XD's in any stage? I don't like a trigger to have a roll at the end, mines set up to break like glass at the end, might be why I don't care much for the polymer guns. Also, did you guys change the sights over to target sights?

Regards,
Mike

The XDM 5.25 comes standard with an adjustable rear sight.  The front sight is a light pipe, which I blackened.  I've shot a 278 NMC with it, the highest I've shot with the 1911 (wad gun) is a 292.  I'd say I'm shooting the XD equal to my 1911 hardball gun.  My sustained fire is equal to slightly better with the XD BUT my long line is definitely not as consistent as the 1911 (both need work).  Long line scores for both my 1911 hardball gun and my XD are inconsistent this is where I will be focusing.

My 1911 wad gun was built by KC Crawford, so hands down it is more accurate and it has a beautiful long roll trigger.  I would agree if you don't shoot a roll trigger the XDM would take a lot to get use to it.  I really like shooting the XDM on the short line, it may have a slight advantage (perceived), it's just fun to shoot.  The only advantage the XDM has for the long line is you could load 10 rounds in 1 mag.

I am going to try the different XDM backstraps, and I have some Zero 147gr loads on order to see if I can improve the long line.  I'm still training with the 1911 too because I may shoot it during the EIC matches, depending on the XD results.
- Dave

mtlucas0311 wrote:When you guys say the gun is "capable" of...do you mean you've put it in a rest or shot off bags? Or you've actually hung it out there with one hand and shot scores (at least semi regularly) in the 90's? I'm sure in a rest the guns are capable of good scores, but that's only half the equation. I see a whole lot of good shooters fall apart on the timed and rapid in the DR match because they have to shoot double action. Triggers are a personal thing, but most of the polymer guns feel like a Mooshy two stage trigger to me. I'm mainly curious if anybody has shot a few NMC's and how the scores compared to traditional target guns.

Admittedly, I'm talking about a Walther PPQ, and not a XD or XDM, but yes, I've actually shot it as my centerfire gun in actual 2700 matches, multiple times. Mostly before I had my Springfield Range Officer 45, but a couple afterwards, too.  The 94 slow fire score I referenced was actually in a real live 2700 match.  My timed and rapid fire scores are not great, because of my trigger control issues, and not due to the gun (as evidenced by the fact that those scores did not improve when I switched to using the 1911 RO... so there's my comparison to a traditional target gun).  

Is the PPQ a good choice for a bullseye gun... no, it's not.  No good option for mounting a red dot, limited aftermarket parts, no dedicated gunsmiths for it, and a trigger designed for the SD & LE crowd (lots of pre-travel then 5.5lbs), ensure that.  Is it capable of consistently shooting 90's in a bullseye match (i.e. 360 out of 400)... absolutely yes.

The only things I modified on the PPQ that helped with bullseye were sights from Dawson Precision that had a much narrower width rear notch (less light on either side of the front post), and a steel guide rod (extra weight in front).

Let's not lose sight of the fact that the 1911 is a great bullseye gun because of the many hundreds of thousands of hours and many millions of dollars that people have collectively spent experimenting, testing, and refining it for the purpose of shooting bullseye, not because it's inherently special.  Lots of 1911's have mediocre triggers and terrible accuracy out of the box, but I know that I can send my 1911 out to one of several BE gunsmiths (along with a hefty check), and it'll come back with sub-3" accuracy at 50yds, because we are, all of us, standing on the shoulders of giants, as the saying goes.  If we put even a fraction of that kind of effort and money into another model that's not inherently flawed, it could be a viable bullseye gun, too (see also: M9).  I'm sure we'll see this with the next military handgun (whatever they pick for the MHS), if the AMU (or other similar group) decides to put effort into it.

I'm new to bullseye but I've been doing action pistol stuff for a few years. The competitors that can only shoot the REALLY up close and personal stuff at the club level matches suffer when they get to big matches. Big matches have long shots, tight shots, and sometimes a fair amount of moving shots. Just throwing it out there that you can't just show up to a big match and dominate if you lack core shooting ability. Most of the successful action pistol guys have some sort of background shooting either bullseye or NRA Action Pistol, which both have a much higher emphasis on accuracy than USPSA or IDPA.

I'm curious to hear that a polymer gun is good enough for the President's 100. People advised me that it's impossible to expect to be competitive in CMP Service Pistol unless you have a very accurized gun. I was originally going to shoot my CZ SP01 Shadow, since I have one for USPSA Production. I'm mostly a revolver shooter so the gun has hardly been shot and it groups pretty well. Even though "All CZ75" variants are OKed on the CMP list, one of the rules directors told me the SP01 in particular is not legal. All games seem to have these crazy rules designed in them. You can buy an off the shelf CZ75B and drop a few hundos to make it into the functional equivalent of a Shadow, but having it ready out of the box is a no no. Go figure.

Some interesting takes on the polymer guns. More positive than I expected, and certainly some better score than I thought possible. It'll be interesting to see what shows up to the line at Perry and how they do.

I've owned quite a few, most were won at PPC matches but I generally trade them away for better guns (in my view anyway). They do make good trade pieces, especially with people who inherit old target guns. I've fired a fair number, but only indoors at 50'. They just never lit my fire and I certainly didn't like the triggers. To each their own.

Regards,
Mike

Just for grins, I shot my PPQ in the second relay of our league night (with Speer Lawman 124gr RN factory ammo).  We shoot slow, timed, rapid, slow, timed, rapid (all 25yds indoors).  So, the first 4 targets are essentially the equivalent of the P100 ... two slows, one timed, one rapid.  I shot 89 in the first slow, 90 in the timed, 68 in the rapid, and 89 again in the second slow, for a total of 336.  Obviously that's not 350+, but, just as obviously, that's because I have poor trigger control in rapid fire. A more competent shooter could definitely do it.

I'll try to shoot mine in a match before too long. My elbow is doing better, and my scores are headed back up. I'll update when I've shot a recent score.

The club that used to run the regional and state matches here held an Iron Man (iron sights) 900 and had a production division one year.   One of the good shooters showed up with an XD 9mm, shortly after they came out, and put up some quite good scores.   At least one of his slow fires was in the low 90's and the rest were not much worse.  Won the production division easily and put up a better score than most of the other competitors using their ball guns.   The XD, and presumably the XDM, are more capable than you might expect.   Have not seen anyone try it with any of the other polymer guns.

john bickar wrote:

SteveT wrote:
Pres 100 Cutoff
2016   ???
2015   352-4
2014   339-5
2013   344-4

Between 2003 and 2015 the max score is 355-7 and the min score is 339-5 (weather was bad in 2014). Average is 349.

Dang, Gina. Times have changed.

I walked back into the hut in 1992 and my hut-mate, Dennis Jayes, said, "What'd you shoot?" I said, "360" (can't remember the X-count).

Dennis said, "That just might friggin' work."

I made the cut by Xs.

Why are scores so much lower when the rules make the course of fire so much easier now?

Because of a couple of reasons.   Very few people practice with their ball guns anymore.   We all shoot dots for the most part in bullseye because they work better for us aging shooters.  

The other reason is CMP has structured both the rules and the fees in such a way for LEG match participation to drive down the numbers, and hence no incentive or opportunity to practice for a once a year match like the Presidents Hundred.  

Casual shooters which we need more of, are not inclined to drive a hundred miles to shoot thirty rounds of expensive ammo, and be a LEG doner when they are going to have to shoot over 250 to have even the possibility of LEG points.  Add onto that, gas, and a 12-20 match fee, I suspect it is going to get pretty hopeless to round up 6 non distinguished shooters to hold a LEG match, never mind 15, where I live.    

I may shoot the LEG match at Canton this year,  haven't decided,  but I haven't registered for the CMP matches at Perry yet this year either.   The last few years have been pretty miserable, and I am not sure I want to spend the two extra hours after the match to dry out and clean my guns, and myself which has been necessary twice before I could go home.

Good points Kate;

Just mailed my $ to the CMP for the P100 and NTI matches on Sunday.
My plan is to drive 8 hours on Friday or Saturday, sleep in car, get up Sunday and shoot the P100 and NTI, go to awards ceremony, sleep in car and leave Monday morning, then back to work on Wednesday.

About as cheap as I can get to shoot 70 shots and hope for the best

Clarence

If I had a XD I would try it in the P100 this year. I've made the P100 in 12,13 and 15 (didn't go to Perry in 14), but if anyone has one I can borrow I'd love to try and win one.