Please educate me about Beretta M9/92FS

With all this excitement about new Perry dates, I just want to treat myself to a new toy   As a California resident, my options are limited to what's listed on the CA roster, but seems like there are quite a few Beretta models are still available. So my questions are:

1) Are there any differences between various M9, 92FS, Inox, Brigadier etc. models in terms of accuracy, trigger, quality of internals etc.
2) I did some research and it looks like Beretta can be accurized by threading the barrel and adding a barrel lock nut and a bushing. Are those modifications legal for CMP matches? Are there any additional modifications to be done (e.g. stoning the sear and hammer hooks, changing springs, etc.)?
3) Looking at the KKM site, there are barrels offered with two different twist rates, 1:18 and 1:32. Which one should I pick? Is it because 9mm loads use two different bullet weights, 115 and 124 gr? If yes, which one is preferred for bullseye?
4) I could not find a good load recipe for Alliant Bullseye powder, is there a reason for it?

Please pardon my ignorance, I'm mostly familiar with 1911 platform, I feel pretty comfortable with fitting barrels and stoning sears and tuning springs for my 1911s, but Beretta is a black box to me.

Forget the Beretta for cmp, buy a 1911 now that all the rules have changed as to ammo and allowed configurations. The Beretta will need much mods to be competitive and then they shoot best with factory match ammo. But if you must, brigidere is best cause its a steel slide. Barrel bushings must meet cmp rules some sold dont. next you need trigger parts and a new match barrel, stock one wont cut it.

I found this on Gunbroker - http://www.gunbroker.com/item/599307480
Looks cute, seems like it only needs adjustable sights.

I HAVE A TONY KIDD BUILT BERETTA. I'VE HAD 2 SAMS BUILT BERETTA BALL GUNS. MY BEST 50YD WERE WITH THE BERETTA, BUT DUE TO THE DIFFERENT TRIGGER SYSTEM (HINGED) MY SHORT LINE WAS ALWAYS BETTER WITH THE 1911. AND YOU SHOOT TWICE AS MANY ROUNDS AT THE SHORT LINE. FOR ME IT WAS A NO BRAINER. 2-  P100 MEDALS WITH THE BERETTA AND 3 WITH THE 1911. I REALLY THINK YOU SHOULD CONSIDER THE 1911 LIKE DAVIDR SUGGESTED. THAT AMMO CHANGE DIDN'T EVEN THE PLAYING FIELD , IT REDESIGNED THE LAYOUT OF THE FIELD.

THAT BEING SAID ; IF YOU ARE SET ON A BERETTA. GET THE BRIGADIER FOR THE BETTER SLIDE. JP

I do have a very nice and accurate 1911 ball gun, as I said for me Beretta is more of a toy. Well, I'm just a sharpshooter and never won any P100 medals.

YOU WILL.  JUST BE POSITIVE.
MOST WANT THE 1-32 TWIST. MY KIDD IS A 1-16 AND OUT SHOT BOTH SAMS GUNS WHICH WERE 1-32. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE 1-18 OR 1-32. I'VE LOADED A LOT OF 50 YD ACCURATE 9MM AMMO FOR PPC MATCHES. THE FOLLOWING WAS MY TIGHTEST SHOOTING 50YD LOADS IN ORDER. THE BULLSEYE POWDER WAS JUST OK AT 50 YDS. THE DIFFERENCE IN POWDERS WERE 1/4-1/2 INCH.

5.0 VV330 115GR XTP
4.8 VV320 115GR XTP
5.4 WSF    115GR XTP

XTP BULLETS THE MOST ACCURATE AT 50 YD. FOLLOWED BY HAP, THAN ZERO 115GR CONICAL JHP. DIFFERENCE IN ACCURACY WAS THE SAME WITH THE BULLETS. ABOUT A 1/4 INCH DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM AT 50YDS.

 THIS IS JUST WHAT I'VE FOUND.  JP

@DavidR

What changes are you talking about?

In 1911 9mm's my shooters are getting 1" groups with 1:16 Kart barrels I installed at 50 yds. 1:10 requires 147's and 1:32 requires 115's. The 16 twist will shoot both.
Jon

To answer your original questions in order:

1) The brigadier is the model you want. Quality is very good, even on an unmodified gun. They are a far cry from the rack grade 92's that the Army is carrying. Slide to frame fit on mine is stellar, it has 0 play (came from the factory like that). In addition, the Brigadier slide is beefed up around the barrel lug cutouts, and is dovetailed for a front sight. The standard 92 slide has a permanent front sight that is a pain to upgrade.

2) Yes, the barrel bushing is legal but as others mentioned it can only extend so far down the barrel. 3/4" I believe but I would have to double check the rules.

3) Like Jon already said, 1:32 is for 115 gr only. I have a 1:18.5 and it does just fine with 115 and 125. Haven't tried 147's yet.

4) Why re-invent the wheel with powder selection? A lot of testing has been done with WSF, N320 and N330. WSF in particular is dirt cheap and very accurate in 9mm.

I just switched to the Beretta after doing service pistol for a couple years with the 1911. I think it was a mistake, but I already have the gun and enjoy shooting it. Partially I just want to shoot the same gun I have been carrying in combat. But with the new ammo rules my .45 short line loads are just as tame if not more so than 9mm, and the 1911 is much easier for me to get a consistent grip on due to how slim it is. If you want a Beretta, get one, just be aware they are not necessarily better or worse than a 1911.

I went with the 92A1. It was a good choice. However, the double stack never really fit my hand. It made someone else a nice ball gun.

Len

javaduke wrote:With all this excitement about new Perry dates, I just want to treat myself to a new toy   As a California resident, my options are limited to what's listed on the CA roster, but seems like there are quite a few Beretta models are still available. So my questions are:

1) Are there any differences between various M9, 92FS, Inox, Brigadier etc. models in terms of accuracy, trigger, quality of internals etc.
2) I did some research and it looks like Beretta can be accurized by threading the barrel and adding a barrel lock nut and a bushing. Are those modifications legal for CMP matches? Are there any additional modifications to be done (e.g. stoning the sear and hammer hooks, changing springs, etc.)?
3) Looking at the KKM site, there are barrels offered with two different twist rates, 1:18 and 1:32. Which one should I pick? Is it because 9mm loads use two different bullet weights, 115 and 124 gr? If yes, which one is preferred for bullseye?
4) I could not find a good load recipe for Alliant Bullseye powder, is there a reason for it?

Please pardon my ignorance, I'm mostly familiar with 1911 platform, I feel pretty comfortable with fitting barrels and stoning sears and tuning springs for my 1911s, but Beretta is a black box to me.

1. Only very small differences between M9/92FS. M9 Sights are dot and post and 92 are 3-dot, finish may be a little nicer on 92, recoil spring guide used to be a little different on 92 but think they are the same now. The Brigadier as others have mentioned is thicker in some parts and the added weight may help some with recoil/balance. The Brigadier front sight is dovetailed in which will be easier for you or a gunsmith to replace.
2. Bushings done the right way are legal for CMP. The Weigand bushing that can be installed by the user is not legal for CMP because it changes the external dimensions of the gun (it attaches to the front of the slide). For a full CMP Beretta the match KKM barrel is installed, barrel bushing built and fit, barrel stabilizer (2 set screws placed into the frame at a 45-degree angle that returns the rear of the barrel to the same position each time) is installed, steel inserts are placed into the aluminum frame rails to tighten the fit.  A trigger job is done as well.
3. The 1/18 will stabilize more bullet weights and is probably the best choice. I've used the 1/18 on their drop-in barrel and was very happy with it. The 1/32 shoots better but it is in a gunsmith-made M9 and the drop-in was one I did myself.
4. There's several well-known very accurate handloads, all of them seem to use VV N340 or Winchester WSF. But if you use the Sierra 115-grain FMJ or the Hornady 115-grain XTP bullet you'll still get good results with other powders. Atlanta Arms has factory loads for both that are the best to use for competition for anyone who doesn't reload. Did find one recipe for Alliant Power Pistol: http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/92loadinfo.html

To get a full-blown CMP Beretta is expensive and takes about 14-16 months, it took me several years to save up the money but it's been worth it to me and I'm very happy with mine! If you want to do your own, you can use the KKM drop-in barrel, get LPA low-profile target rear sight, change the hammer spring to 16-lbs (Wolff springs makes them) to get a slightly smoother single action trigger pull and it will be very accurate at 50-yards. Power Custom makes a jig and stoning kit that will help you if you want to attempt it yourself but any gunsmith with pistol trigger job experience should be able to do the trigger job.

If you like the Beretta go for it, when I started bullseye I had one for defense and already shot IDPA with it. It was used in SAFS and saw the AMU guys competing with their tricked out ones so it's what I went with. Of course I have long fingers so it just fits my hand very well and I really like the single-action trigger on it when tuned.

Is there any chance you can post detailed pics of the modifications?  In my experience people that know about these modifications only talk about them and never post pics! 

OK, thanks everyone, I just ordered a 92FS Brigadier. My plan is to replace the sights with adjustable ones first, then order an ignition kit from C&S and a reduced mainspring and trigger spring from Wolff. Then I'll see how it shoots with the factory barrel, and if needed, I'll get a barrel and a locking nut and will send it to WAL for a conical bushing mod. I could not find a KKM drop-in barrel though, only semi-drop-in. Not sure what it takes to fit the Beretta barrel, but I guess if I can fit a 1911 barrel *reasonably well*, the Beretta one should be a simple task.

OYSaladman wrote:Is there any chance you can post detailed pics of the modifications?  In my experience people that know about these modifications only talk about them and never post pics! 

Sure, here are some pics of my David Sams-built M9. I'm posting links to the pics, not had much luck uploading directly to the forum. Also, you're right there aren't lots of pics out there and it is frustrating. You can do a Google image search for national match m9 or accurized beretta and you'll find some cool pics, some with the rails and bushing removed.


























photo hosting

Man it would be really interesting to watch Mr Sams put one of these together.

Thank you for the pics.  

I would look into a XDM, the Army team had good results with them and its a cheaper option then a 92 for competition. There is a string on this sight all about it, and I thought the results were impressive for a striker fire center fire pistol. 
The XDM has a nice recoil system and for a double stack the grip is not bad.

rich.tullo wrote:I would look into a XDM, the Army team had good results with them and its a cheaper option then a 92 for competition. There is a string on this sight all about it, and I thought the results were impressive for a striker fire center fire pistol. 
The XDM has a nice recoil system and for a double stack the grip is not bad.

I know a few shooters now using XDM's and they're getting good results. I've handled one built by SA Custom Shop and it locked up real nice.
Rich is right, much cheaper to buy/build. Beretta's are just waiting for opportunity to break.
Jon

Personally I would go with a CZ75 over a 92 but I suspect they would not make very good service pistols as the SA trigger job will be about 2LBS. 

For service pistol I am going to try to customize one my self but next year I am going to focus on EIC and revolver. 

RT

javaduke wrote:OK, thanks everyone, I just ordered a 92FS Brigadier. My plan is to replace the sights with adjustable ones first, then order an ignition kit from C&S and a reduced mainspring and trigger spring from Wolff. Then I'll see how it shoots with the factory barrel, and if needed, I'll get a barrel and a locking nut and will send it to WAL for a conical bushing mod. I could not find a KKM drop-in barrel though, only semi-drop-in. Not sure what it takes to fit the Beretta barrel, but I guess if I can fit a 1911 barrel *reasonably well*, the Beretta one should be a simple task.

Congrats, I think you'll really like the gun. One note, the WAL bushing won't be legal for CMP matches. Not saying you shouldn't get it, just don't want you to spend the money if CMP matches are your goal with it. And the KKM semi-drop-in is the one I meant; you probably won't have to do any fitting at all. Mine fit with no changes and shot very well. Good luck and keep us updated!

C-Train wrote:One note, the WAL bushing won't be legal for CMP matches. Not saying you shouldn't get it, just don't want you to spend the money if CMP matches are your goal with it. 

Ahh thanks, that's important piece of info  I guess I'll just start with the sights, ignition parts and the KKM barrel.

JUST A THOUGHT. THE 115GR INFO I LISTED EARLIER WAS FOR THE 1/32 TWIST. IF YOU DECIDE TO GO WITH THE 1/18 TWIST. HERE'S THE LOADING FOR THAT.
BEST 147GR XTP 4.2 VV330
2ND  147GR XTP 4.0 WSF (VERY SOFT SHOOTING, VERY EASY RECOIL MANAGEMENT)

I have one more follow-up question - is the stock Brigadier front sight tall enough for adjustable rear sight or do I need to replace it? If I need to replace it, what size should I be looking for? Kensight has this dovetail: http://stores.kensight.com/standard-fronts-white-dot-blade-flat-base/ in many different sizes, which one do I need? (I assume it's the standard front dovetail cut, regardless of whether it's a Beretta or 1911)

It all depends on which rear sight you choose. If you go with the Kensight rear sight for the Beretta you will need a taller front sight. Not sure those front sights you linked to will fit the Brigadier, may want to call Kensight first to verify. Not sure what dovetail is used in the Brigadier but don't think it is a standard one.

Alternatively, you could get the LPA TPU rear sight ( http://www.lpasights.com/en/products?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=25&category_id=29) and keep your stock front sight or get one of the LPA sight sets for the Brigadier that includes a front sight - http://www.lpasights.com/en/products?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=90&category_id=30. They have a set with white dots if you prefer.

JIMPGOV wrote:JUST A THOUGHT. THE 115GR INFO I LISTED EARLIER WAS FOR THE 1/32 TWIST. IF YOU DECIDE TO GO WITH THE 1/18 TWIST. HERE'S THE LOADING FOR THAT.
BEST 147GR XTP 4.2 VV330
2ND  147GR XTP 4.0 WSF (VERY SOFT SHOOTING, VERY EASY RECOIL MANAGEMENT)

Jim,
Did you record your groups for the 1:18 twist barrel? I would be really appreciative of any of that raw data you have.
Andrew