"Too lille trigger finger"

by ST BERNARD Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:08 pm

Rookie question if I may. Went to the range this morning and shot what could have been a really good target (for me)..except for the hits that went out into the white rings to the left. They looked and felt good when they broke....and of course there were the usual two or three that were WAY out in the white rings when I tried to outsmart the roll trigger. Went to the error analysis charts.....they say "too little trigger finger", and "finger not on trigger correctly". Just what does that mean. I take it means not pulling straight back. Might be getting impatient....the hits in the black are starting to look like a group lately, and are centered. The ones that go left are what's killing me,because I'm not calling them there. Hope some of you folks can tell me what to work on during dry fire to move those shots over to center.
I don't think it's grip related....that always feels good and the sight picture agrees that it is.
I wish there were some local bullseye shooters to talk to..... there aren't any that I know of. That's why i spend so darn much time reading here.
Any advice would be appreciated, and thanks in advance;
Bill

by Chris Miceli Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:18 pm

That chart is garbage don't put faith into it. I'm sure one of the good shooters can give you some input

by Jack H Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:23 pm

Dryfire and watch the sight before, during, and after the fall of the hammer.

Dryfire and hold the trigger pressure back for just a moment. Keep looking at the sight. Then look at the sights as you release pressure. The sight should never move.

Try all grip and trigger positions to achieve sight alignment before, during, and after the fall of the hammer.

Do consider the size of pistol grip and size of hand and length of pull.

Also a real quality trigger makes all this easier.

One more thing that seems to never get mentioned. Is there a prior error that caused a mental error and then the "trigger error". Were you holding too long, therefore forcing the sights and then the trigger? Were you fatiguing the hold and grip muscles and therefore loosening the grip. I could go on. But a cascade effect could be happening prior to the hammer fall. This is why the "chart" is really wrong as it does not consider multiple mental possibilities.

by ST BERNARD Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:51 pm

Thanks a million for the response Jack. I was probably doing "blank sky drills" about the same time you were writing the reply. Was doing a bunch of this a month ago and thought I had a handle on grip and finger placement. Since, have been concentrating on only front sight focus. Today, I could plainly see the times the front sight flickered to the left and the strip of daylight got narrow or disappeared. (up against the sky). So, tried thinking hard about pulling straight back rather than the front sight...it made a difference. The trigger is excellent (but probably not legal).. a KC kit that is better than some of our rifles. Almost falls by itself when I fixate on the sights. What I know for sure is that when the grip or finger placement is off, the trigger immediately feels heavier.....and I put the gun down and start over. Alway try to start the shot over if anything feels unsure or uncomfortable.
I know that this isn't going to happen overnight...especially at my age. Will just keep at it and maybe make one or two more good shots ever weekend I hope.
Thanks again, and MERRY CHRISTMAS Jack;
Bill

by **Wobbley** Fri Dec 23, 2016 5:15 pm

If you can afford one,a SCATT will tell you a lot about your hold and trigger release.

by jmdavis Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:08 pm

A Scatt can be a great diagnostic tool. But it is only one tool. The "dotter", and blank wall dry fire are both better tools to start out. The Scatt will point out what you are doing, but it won't fix the problems. And starting out your hold will be target sized rather than ring sized. Dryfire at the blank wall will help with getting that hold down in size.

Learn your trigger, dryfire, find a local mentor, preferably distinguished or 2600 club, and start going through the USMC manual and you will find yourself advancing.

You should also tell us where you are. There might be more good shooters around than you know.

by Guest Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:21 am

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by **Wobbley** Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:42 am

4 to 8 seconds during timed and rapid fire ain't gonna work.

by CR10X Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:50 am

(1) Dryfire and learn to really see the front sight using open sights only while operating the trigger. NO target needed.
(2) Find a place to put the trigger finger that keeps the front sight centered and level in the rear sight. Probably want to work on a good, firm consistent grip to help. [If the gun wobbles too much, you can also do this from a benched position with only wrists supported, but you gotta see the front sight and how it reacts to the trigger and grip.] Probably need a good 3,000 or so repetitions here to create the proper habits and consistency. I suggest about 15 to 20 minutes a day or every other day.
(3) When shooting (either open or dot sights); get ready to shoot the shot while the gun is on the bench (grip, breathing, commitment, body alignment, focus, etc.)
(4) Raise the gun and put the finger on the trigger in exactly the spot learned earlier (while dry firing with open sights) and shoot the first 10 you see. [More completely, complete the trigger press as the wobble is getting smaller, it does not have to stop.] If it doesn't get smaller, put the gun down and save the whole ten points.
(5) Repeat correctly for at least 3000 repetitions (I suggest 15 to 20 minutes per day over multiple days, but what the heck, its your arm). But you have to do it correctly each time or it doesn't count.
(6) When you get 3000 in a row, move on to 2 shots, then 3, etc.
(7) Look surprised when High Master card comes in the mail.

CR

by Ed Hall Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:01 am

I'd like to add to Cecil's post a bit. While I agree with his suggestion of using open sights, if you insist on using a dot instead of his open sight suggestion, make sure you work directly with keeping the dot centered in the tube. However, I firmly believe that the open sights will give you a better indication of what the gun is doing during the trigger operation, if you pay close attention to them. You do have to see them clearly for this.

Also, I would like to voice opposition to the slow trigger suggestion. A slow trigger will cover up errors that should be addressed, namely that the press is out of line with the bore.

I have an exercise on line that I'd like to offer:

Improving Hold and Trigger Manipulation

by Guest Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:48 pm

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by ST BERNARD Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:32 pm

I wish you folks knew how much I've learned by reading this forum, and how much I appreciate all the great advice and instruction. Have dry fired many thousand times at the sky or the black spot on the tile above the kitchen sink....but up until this past weekend, was not gaining much except for being able to hold steadier. Had some kind of revelation by concentrating on "follow through", rather than the front sight. After two days of holding after the shot and while letting the trigger back forward, I went to the range on Monday and shot my best ever, so far. The hits at 9 o'clock were gone. After all the arrows I've loosed off the fingertips with recurve target bows, I DO know the importance of follow through...(keep pushing and pulling and aiming until the arrow is in the target). Who'd a thunk shooting a pistol was any different? Me.
Went ahead with ordering the Marvel rib and Ultra Dot, but we're going to hold off for a while yet before trying them. Have finally shot respectably with the irons and want to do it again. Did it once and CAN do it again. Knowing that feels darn good too.
Don't see any SCATT system around here in the near future.....that money would be better spent on the pistol and reloading components.
Many thanks again to all, and all the best in the New Year;
Bill

by **Wobbley** Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:58 pm

w4ti wrote:
Wobbley wrote:4 to 8 seconds during timed and rapid fire ain't gonna work.

Well, you can't really run before you walk, either. Other than a thousand dollar toy, what would be your cheapest, easiest to implement solution to the problem? It's dry fire, right? Can you practice dry firing for timed or rapid with a 1911? Hmmm.

Thanks,
Chase

It is far easier in this game to develop a trigger release that takes a second to complete AND doesn't move the front sight and sight alignment when you do. This is not a jerk trigger pull either just a quick unrelenting increase in pressure. So learning a trigger pull that will never work in timed and rapid because your grip setup is wrong is a waste of effort and will need to be unlearned.

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by DavidR Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:48 pm

w4ti wrote:
Wobbley wrote:4 to 8 seconds during timed and rapid fire ain't gonna work.

Well, you can't really run before you walk, either. Other than a thousand dollar toy, what would be your cheapest, easiest to implement solution to the problem? It's dry fire, right? Can you practice dry firing for timed or rapid with a 1911? Hmmm.

Thanks,
Chase

Might check into the ITarget system, it's only 99.00 and it works with a 1911 by using a dry fire laser dummy round and a app on your smart phone that marks each dry fire shot on the target then it shows it on the phone screen

by Ed Hall Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:59 pm

w4ti wrote:...
Can you practice dry firing for timed or rapid with a 1911? Hmmm.

Thanks,
Chase

I do! With my 208s, also, and, I used to, with my Ruger MII.

I tie one end of a piece of strong twine to the rear sight/rear scope mount on the 1911, the head of a 1/16" cotter pin through the back cross pin hole in the Hammerli slide (with the rear sight removed) and in a figure 8 around the ears of the Ruger bolt. The other end of the string is tied and wrapped around a Ruger magazine, such that by wrapping/unwrapping it, I can adjust the length so that with my off hand against my chest and my shooting hand in firing position, there is a slight bit of slack in the string. I dry fire, follow through for a second and then cycle the slide/bolt via the string. I have even done this with my Rika, but that takes a bit of setting up and each dry fire must be moved rather far off the target to reset the software for the subsequent shot.

by **Wobbley** Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:36 am

Happy

w4ti wrote:
Wobbley wrote:It is far easier in this game to develop a trigger release that takes a second to complete AND doesn't move the front sight and sight alignment when you do. This is not a jerk trigger pull either just a quick unrelenting increase in pressure. So learning a trigger pull that will never work in timed and rapid because your grip setup is wrong is a waste of effort and will need to be unlearned.

So, run before you walk. Gotcha.

Nope, but develop a walking gate that will allow you to start running with the least to change.

There are plenty of books and videos on proper gripping and trigger finger placement. Develop your grip to give you good control during recoil. Change the length of the trigger to get proper trigger finger placement if you must. AME the grip panels thinner or fatter. All of these things should be worked out in your first few weeks of training. But there is absolutely no sense in developing techniques that are different. Not until you have a process that works. One of the common tyro discoveries is that often they shoot better slowfire scores if they shoot them like timed fire. The reason is they squeeze off the shot much quicker. Fatigue and anxiety gives rise to jerking the shot. Proven fact.

So develop a grip that aids recoil recovery. Change your gun as necessary to suit your hand and develop a quick steady pull on the trigger that doesn't disturb the sight alignment. Down to the core, pistol shooting has two fundamentals: sight alignment and trigger control. Everything else is technique. Your technique must be developed to meet the requirements of the total discipline. Until you master the discipline keep it simple.

Study this guide it's a lot easier to understand than what can be learned here. https://estore.thecmp.org/Catalog/Item/778

by CR10X Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:42 am

I agree we need to walk before running, but there are some substantial differences and similarities in the disciplines. In general for training, holding longer, past the minimum wobble, is counter productive if we still release the shot. We might be training its ok to release the shot past the minimum point of wobble. If we use it to learn the indicator of over holding, then that might help.

The thing about Air and Free shooters is (1) the sight radius is substantially longer, especially for Free, (2) trigger pull weights are very light to almost non existent; (3) shooters train for these events more specifically to take advantage of the time available (muscle recovery) and (4) we spend a little extra time looking for how the heartbeat is affecting the sight alignment in order to see the very minimum wobble possible.

Basically seeing what some shooters need to see takes just a little longer for these disciplines. The actual trigger process time is about the same for me. It's the setup and settling into the minimum arc of movement that takes a little longer.

This does not translate completely to Conventional (Precision Pistol) with the heavier trigger weights, larger target areas and more limited times to complete the strings.

From my opinion, its not bad to see what happens past the minimum point of wobble as long as we don't fire. That's how we can learn to recognize the indicator that we held too long.

by Ed Hall Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:02 pm

w4ti wrote:
Not really proven- if you watch the Olympic shooters shooting free pistol, they hold anywhere from 8-20 seconds before releasing a shot. You can watch the women's 10M event and they too can go for 20 seconds before releasing the shot. Doesn't mean it actually takes them 8-20 seconds to release the trigger, of course.

Glad to see you caught that last part.

w4ti wrote:...
I wasn't suggesting that OP *always* take 4-8 seconds per shot. I think it is a great exercise to use to really help figure out what is happening during triggering...

This is where I disagree and here's why:

For the best shot, all side forces must be in balance at the hammer fall. This can be taken to a high number of intricate details. For this description, it will be limited to the wrist and forward. An optimum of hold is realized when the shooter can raise the gun to the target and find the sights already aligned. This should be worked on through grip and posture. (I know I said "wrist and forward.") Once the optimum hold is achieved, the trigger can be brought into the process. Now, here's the normal tendency when adding the trigger:
1. apply pressure while watching the sights
2. keep sighting system aligned
When the trigger operation is too slow, if there is lateral pressure which misaligns the sighting system, the adjustment is made via the wrist as the error is perceived as minimal. As the lateral pressure isn't corrected, it increases, and the opposing wrist pressure is increased to compensate further. The impending imbalance is not seen if the trigger operation is too slow. While the operation is advancing the system is in balance - there is an equal pressure one way with the trigger and the other with the wrist. But when the sear releases the hammer, there is a brief instance when the balance is lost and the wrist wins out. This is that flick that's seen after what looked like so perfect an operation. The process looked perfect but the slowness covered up the actual details.

...
The great thing about shooting is that there isn't always one "right" way; I hope my answer at least got some juices flowing for OP on options to look at; yours fails in that regard because it required incredibly expensive equipment that doesn't really work for the conditions you believed should be demonstrated to be successful in the first place.

I think Cecil's advice was pretty spot on- this is something that can be worked on in dry fire; and I ought to know, because I'm working on it in dry fire and in practice right now. One should be incredibly choosey about a perfect sight picture, especially so to imprint it so you are actually calling shots correctly.

Thanks,
Chase

There are, indeed, many paths you can follow and each is its own adventure. I wouldn't disregard any without at least some study and consideration.

by Jack H Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:09 pm

Right on, Ed. Write on.

by 285wannab Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:08 pm

Thanks Ed... I never realized my wrist could be causing those flicks. This could be one of those light bulb moments...

by Oleg G Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:55 pm

On dry-fire practice for timed and rapid fire: I ordered the SIRT pistol from Next Level Training and the L.A.S.R. software

"Too lille trigger finger" 15799855_358615151175841_8459096918635642819_o

"Too lille trigger finger" 15799855_358615151175841_8459096918635642819_o

The trigger on this thing is supposed to be adjustable for weight, pre-travel, over-travel and position. My plan is to use the pistol and software for dry-fire training. Since the pistol has a resetting trigger, it should be well-suited for timed and rapid dry-firing.

I have no idea how well-suited this setup will be for Bullseye but am willing to give it a try. If anybody is interested, I will post my impressions and results when I receive the pistol and start training with it.

Regards,
Oleg.

by rreid Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:23 pm

w4tiCan you practice dry firing for timed or rapid with a 1911? Hmmm. wrote:
Thanks,
Chase

One-shot drills.

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"Too lille trigger finger"