Les Baer 1911 Bullseye OR Rock River Arms 1911 Bullseye

First topic message reminder :

I need some help in choosing between a Les Baer 1911 bullseye and  Rock River Arms 1911 bullseye.   Both are same price.  Both carry a slide mounted C More.  Both are near new condition and tight as the proverbial tick.  I can afford to choose one.  I need your help.  Rock River carries a Kart barrel and Baer his own.  Also, can you explain your answer instead of answering Baer or Rock River.

Rob9mmshooter wrote:I just received a new gun I purchased from David Sams a little over a year ago.  Not because I can do it justice but I wanted one from the Best!

I think that this says it all.

Why must there be a flyer.  Like it says Exceptional Target but if that flyer wasn't there it would be awesome.

Sorry about my multiple posts and in the wrong place as well!  How do you move one or can't I do that?

I may be biased but there is nothing wrong with Les Baer's service. My dad knew him 40 years ago and he has spent time on the phone with me and offered advice on his products and what loads to use. 

He does use Kart Barrels. The guns are also hand built but some guys there are better than others and the quality control on the build job is inconsistent. The guns are accurate out of the box but some are very hard fit and others are what you would expect from Les Baer. 

Moving on to finish Rock Island does better job and every RRA I have handled was impeccable. I think RRA get their frame blanks and slide from Les so really we are talking about build and finish and short of buying a wad gun from KC Crawford,  Dave Sams , Accuracy X or Jon Eulette I would buy a RRA. 

However is you are just starting out try to find an used Saylor, Madore or Giles from someone you know. Shoot it until you get over 750 scores and know  what you want in a wad gun. Then order one of the above for more money but it's worth it.

Blsi2600 wrote:1998 or 1999 Rock River wad gun on Gunbroker.  $1,399 start.  NO RESERVE. Oldie, maybe a goodie.  Mine is.

That's an amazing price for one. I'd be surprised if that doesn't hit $2,000. If it stays anywhere near that, I'd be tempted just to pick it up just on general principles.

mpolans wrote:That's an amazing price for one. I'd be surprised if that doesn't hit $2,000. If it stays anywhere near that, I'd be tempted just to pick it up just on general principles.

Be careful!   I have a safe full of guns bought on "principles" such as a give away price...  

Zane, I'm glad you told us that. Good luck on the auction.  RRA over baer every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

rich.tullo wrote:I may be biased but there is nothing wrong with Les Baer's service. My dad knew him 40 years ago and he has spent time on the phone with me and offered advice on his products and what loads to use. 

He does use Kart Barrels. The guns are also hand built but some guys there are better than others and the quality control on the build job is inconsistent. The guns are accurate out of the box but some are very hard fit and others are what you would expect from Les Baer. 

Moving on to finish Rock Island does better job and every RRA I have handled was impeccable. I think RRA get their frame blanks and slide from Les so really we are talking about build and finish and short of buying a wad gun from KC Crawford,  Dave Sams , Accuracy X or Jon Eulette I would buy a RRA. 

However is you are just starting out try to find an used Saylor, Madore or Giles from someone you know. Shoot it until you get over 750 scores and know  what you want in a wad gun. Then order one of the above for more money but it's worth it.

Rich, the brothers who own Rock River split from Les Baer many years ago to start their own company. It was not on good terms, and I can assure you that they don't buy anything from Les Baer. I've never owned a Rock River pistol, but have handled many and know folks that own them. Although they are super tight slide/ frame fit, they function right at the get go. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the best Ransom Rest group I've ever seen was 10 shots at 50 yards, using a handload of 185 gr. JHP Nosler bullets and 4.6 grains of Alliant Bullseye. The group was sub 1". This was a brand new Rock River 1911 with slide mounted scope. The pistol wasn't any kind of special order or anything and the shooter was just a club member who was an Expert, so no national fame. A couple of the triggers on Rock Rivers needed some tweaking, but when Rock River redid them, they were great.

It does not matter what product a company makes, when the company grows to the point that one cannot call or better engage in conversation such as on Commercial Row, the company it too big to be able to provide great customer service.  The costs, at least to the accountants and managers, would exceed any potential revenue.

I've watch KC Crawford, the Rock River guys, and Steve Huff of Accuracy X all spend lots of time discussing their products, any customer issues, and discussing and/or making modifications at Commercial Row.  Oh, add to that Springfield Armory, Clark Custom Guns, and Pardini USA were at Commercial Row.  There are of course others but these are the companies with whose personnel I've had memorable conversations.  

I had a Baer and it was a very good gun. I had no complaints.  The AXI I bought is however better and perhaps as perfect as a target 1911 can be. Once I thought I had an issue with the AXI and called Steve Huff to discuss.  He gave me advice to determine if if might be me, my handloads, or the gun.  He also offered that I could send it back and he'd ensure that the gun was perfect as could be.  That's superior customer service!  I resolved the problem in changing to a softer primer for cold weather practice.  Great service develops trust.  

I liked my first AXI gun and also Steve's responses to any questions I had so much that I bought an AXI wad gun. With an optic it shoots far better than I do.  Trust and confidence in the builder and his tiny company lead to orders for a long slide 10mm, a lightweight carry gun, a 9mm 1911, and a dedicated lower for a Nelson .22 conversion.  This is what those large makers of premium guns never learned or perhaps forgot.  Perfection in their products along with small town customer service will earn them repeat business.  Sometimes an awful lot of it!  Now all I have to do is take on a second and third job to pay for all those orders!  

I have several LB, and an RRA, I'd take the RRA before the LB. 

One of my LB out of the box was awesome, the others were so-so/OK and took some tuning to get them to be where I wanted them.  So my point is LB quality varies depending on who worked on it, I think they are a good deal for the money but not all of them are great.  It didn't use to be that way. 
- Dave

When you have a single smith like KC, Jon and others working on a pistol they pay attention to detail, listen to the shooter needs and make every attempt to make a perfect gun simply because their name is on or associated with it. Pride in the finished product becomes more important than the time required to do the work. When adding help that really don't know or care about shooting it becomes a job to do for a pay check. Quality begins to go down. Baer started out good but when they started to produce many gun and hired more help their quality dropped.
 A friend of mine wanting build his 1911 seen a video of Baer's workers building the 1911 and told me about it. When I seen it I told him it was a good video on what not to do! Larger companies that send representatives to Perry like Springfield and Pardini use the information gathered to produce a better product. A gun like a Springfield is not as good as one built by KC, Jon and others but it is of better quality than the average production gun and they understand that their best advertisement is word of mouth from satisfied shooters.

I would say that Springfield Armory is as big or bigger than Les Baer.  Yet they go to Perry and have done so for years, decades even.  Not only to sell but to service the needs of the shooters.  Rock River looks to be out of the same mold as SA.

I would agree Springfield is much bigger that LB they are a credit to the shooting sport. They offer the best entry level pistols.

I really like my LB wad gun and did not know about these others when I bought it.  I didn't want to spend the extra $300 for a 1.5" gun but the one I receiver was a 1.6" gun.  It really doesn't matter as my groups at 50yds are more like 8".  That was a 50% improvement over my Gold Cup NM.   Maybe a KC built will be next if I ever learn this sport. Until then my LB is just fine.  Don

Lot of persons say the same,springfield is better than a les baer.

If it shoots around two inches, has a decent trigger and goes bang every time, I don't much care what it says on the side of the gun.

I feel the same way, who cares what the brand is as long as does what it's supposed to. A gun that shoots good groups and functions is a Great gun! Problem is when putting good money in what is advertised as a Bullseye tack driver turns out to be a shot gun. A gun like a Springfield RO isn't the best tack driver yet reasonably priced using good frame and slide material so that it can be sent to someone like KC or Jon to be up-graded to a tack driver when ever the shooter decides he needs a tighter group. Or going to a quality builder like RR and getting the tack driver and having the support when there is a problem.

To the OP deciding between Rock River and Les Baer. Both guns have their ups and downs and both will probably take you to high master if you do your part. My suggestion is dry fire both pistols side by side. Which one feels better? Which one can you dry fire and the sights move the least? Which gun has a better trigger?

Well I won the RRA but a couple guys made me pay up for it a bit, won it for $1875. I'm going to slide mount dots, my current Les Baer is a frame mount. I may be selling my LB to a buddy at work, if he doesn't buy it I'll likely list it here.

zanemoseley wrote:Well I won the RRA but a couple guys made me pay up for it a bit, won it for $1875. I'm going to slide mount dots, my current Les Baer is a frame mount. I may be selling my LB to a buddy at work, if he doesn't buy it I'll likely list it here.

Still sounds like a pretty good price. Enjoy the gun.

I emailed RRA to confirm the year of mfg. It is a 1999 model. According to Wiki they split from Les Baer in 1993 to form Tolernace Plus which later became RRA. I'm not sure what years they quit making 1911's, perhaps I'll email them and see what they say. I love the history of firearms and manufacturers.