Model 41 question

Really getting into rimfire and was looking at a S&W 41  Is it advised to stay away from the newer ones?  If one was to get a new one what version?  Just kind of putting feelers out.  I'd love to be able to use a dot as well.

Thanks Gents and Happy Thanksgiving

If i got a model 41 the first think i would do is send it to a gunsmith new or old.. wouldn't even bother shooting it. The custom shop one looks blahhhh.... for 5.5 or 7" you need to shoot both to figure out which one balances for you.

I started on a Model 41 that was probably manufactured some time in the 1970’s. I don’t know that for sure but it’s a guess. It has been a very acccurate gun. I prefer mine with the Herrett Nationals grips. 

The 41 is kind of a hit and miss gun. Sometimes you buy one and it’s fine and it cycles with no issues. My friend bought a newer one and it cycles CCI Standard Vocity just fine. Other ammunition not so much. Mine has been a jam-o-matic until I put the Volquartsen extractor in and replaced some of the springs. And even still in cold weather it doesn’t run reliably. 

A 41 if tuned right can be just as reliable as anything else and quite accurate. I think KC does 41 work. Don’t quote me I don’t remember. Check his website for info. I’m using my 41 with iron sights for 22 EIC matches. Modern 41’s I think have barrels that are drilled and tapped for a scope base to be attached. There’s also the Clark barrel that has an integrated rail. 

For normal 2700 I shoot a Nelson. Keeps me used to the way a 1911 feels in the hand and the way the trigger is. It’s a different kind of trigger when using a pivoting trigger vs a linear sliding trigger.

Someone posted on Facebook about this advantage arms conversions. Hmmmmm might be a better and cheaper option


Edit. Just saw the aa will not fit on a RO FRAME. Aghhhhhhh

lablover wrote:Someone posted on Facebook about this advantage arms conversions. Hmmmmm might be a better and cheaper option


Edit. Just saw the aa will not fit on a RO FRAME. Aghhhhhhh

#fakenews #alternativefacts      if anything the problem was the stupid ILS hamspring 28lb spring causing cycling issues

KC does really good M41 work. He turned my used 1978 jam-o-matic that wouldn't run a magazine of CCI SV into a very reliable pistol. (Trying different springs and extractors with no improvement led me to send it to KC.) I have the 5.5 heavy barrel and a Clark 6.5. KC's trigger job is very good but I haven't warmed up to the trigger shape and geometry.

Edit: The S&W 5.5 barrel was relined by Alex Hamilton after I read a lot of Jerry Keefer's views on M41 barrels. Shoots X ring at 50 yards with most target ammo.

After shooting Air Pistol and 50 Meter Men's Pistol I really like having an adjustable length trigger. 1911s come close with different length triggers and trigger shoes.

I had opportunity to buy three differents 41's model with the same situation,only love cci's sv. I like old pistols between 1960-1979 special series A. 5 years ago i change a Ruger MK III and AK 47 for a High standard supermatic trophy Military and is one of the best deals i make. This pistols shoots fiocchi,aguila sv,cci sv,Geco sv without problems. I remember a post of Mr Jerry Keefer(Rip),he mention the true match grade barrel  made in usa is High standard. I change the barrel for lsp aluma  to add ultradot and compensate the weight and is great. My future project is a dedicated lower for my marvel conversion and a Hammerli 208s.

Sa-tevp wrote:KC does really good M41 work. He turned my used 1978 jam-o-matic that wouldn't run a magazine of CCI SV into a very reliable pistol. (Trying different springs and extractors with no improvement led me to send it to KC.) I have the 5.5 heavy barrel and a Clark 6.5. KC's trigger job is very good but I haven't warmed up to the trigger shape and geometry.

Edit: The S&W 5.5 barrel was relined by Alex Hamilton after I read a lot of Jerry Keefer's views on M41 barrels. Shoots X ring at 50 yards with most target ammo.

After shooting Air Pistol and 50 Meter Men's Pistol I really like having an adjustable length trigger. 1911s come close with different length triggers and trigger shoes.

They 208s has an adjustable trigger that you can move. Same with most of the euro guns

41's seem to come in two versions.  Version 1 is like mine (early 70's 8.375 barrel) works with any ammo and is a joy to shoot.  The other version is fussy and jams constantly and will not function unless the stars line up, its 74 degrees outside and the CCI SV has been blessed by the Pope.  If you get the second version send it to somebody like KC custom or Clark and hope for the best.

troystaten wrote:41's seem to come in two versions.  Version 1 is like mine (early 70's 8.375 barrel) works with any ammo and is a joy to shoot.  The other version is fussy and jams constantly and will not function unless the stars line up, its 74 degrees outside and the CCI SV has been blessed by the Pope.  If you get the second version send it to somebody like KC custom or Clark and hope for the best.

CLARK! you must be kidding. Didn't you see the video posted on another M41 thread. 

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t8608-aguila-super-extra-sv-solid-point-problem

His solution is "put some oil on it". The gunsmith equivalent to "rub some dirt in it kid". I've never needed Clark's services and I saw him at Perry when I first went but this video tells me everything I need to know, he will never be working on any of my guns. 

You are wasting your time and money dealing with a gunsmith that mentions oil in a conversation about a misfeeding/light striking model 41. 

send it to KC and you won't have to "hope for the best"

I have a mid 80's 41. It was very reliable when I bought it used.  KC tuned it up disabled the mag disconnect and made the trigger awesome. I use a 7" barrel for EIC(finally got some points with it) and a Clark 6 1/2" for the dot. CCI SV, Eley Club, Aguilla SV, Federal Auto Match all run great. I've actually never had an alibi with it.

Robert I should have been more specific, I have not personally used KC custom or Clark so I should have added that disclaimer.  That being said I do want to try one of Clark's model 41 barrels so I don't have to drill and tap mine to use a red dot.

I have a 41, 2014, I think. It's flawless with CCI SV. I did pretty well with it last season. I'm currently shooting a High Standard military, fits my hand better. But... nothing wrong with the 41.
Kurt

I remember the Clark barrel's were very popular so I assume they help with functioning problems. Gil Hebard sold them for many years.

I’m really on the fence. I have a mk3 now and do well with it I’m looking at the mk4 target with laminated grips. The competition and the 41 as well as a conversion unit for my 1911. A dedicated rimfire would be nice. Nothing wrong with my mk3 but if I got another the Wife is more apt to go play with me on league night. Mentioned to her a few gals also shoot and she became interested.

lablover wrote:I’m really on the fence. I have a mk3 now and do well with it I’m looking at the mk4 target with laminated grips. The competition and the 41 as well as a conversion unit for my 1911. A dedicated rimfire would be nice. Nothing wrong with my mk3 but if I got another the Wife is more apt to go play with me on league night. Mentioned to her a few gals also shoot and she became interested.

My experience with a Ruger MKIII Target model; I owned one for a long time. When I first started shooting pistols competitively I was shooting muzzleloaders of all things. My coach upon introduction to the black powder guns, didn't let me shoot them until I learned the fundamentals of pistol shooting. To do that my Ruger MKIII was used as a training pistol. Prior to this I owned it simply for plinking. After getting better for some time I hit a plateau. I acquired a S&W M41 for the reason that my single shot percussion pistol was built to mimic a 41 so it made sense to me to get a training pistol that was close to the black powder guns. 

The Ruger was reliable. Never had a problem not once with any ammunition I gave it. But I saw an increase in points at 50 yards with the 41. I struggled to hit 90 with the Ruger. With the 41 I was shooting 91-94. I've spoken to some about the Ruger Target model and it's not near the pistol the older Government model was. I was told the Government model had a different twist rate in the barrel. The normal target model aren't as good as they could be. Entry level at best I think. Aftermarket barrels make the Ruger an excellent gun. 

After using the Model 41 for a few years along side my black powder guns I got into shooting NRA Bullseye. I switched to a Nelson for reliability reasons and also I could learn and stay used the grip and trigger between three guns. My 22, my 45 wad gun, and now my hardball gun. I have two barrels for the Nelson. I have one with the Iron sight rib attached and the other with a red dot attached. If I wanted to switch it only take seconds. 

I don't know much about the competition model Ruger sells. I would investigate as to wether it has the same twist rate as the Target model or is it something else. The Ruger is a good entry level gun but to make Master you'll be hard pressed. It'll carry you on to expert no problem.

In reality it only matters that you pick a gun thats comfortable in the hand. Something that fits right so that the length of pull isn't off too bad. Something that allows you to shoot it comfortably is important. You'll be fighting with other issues - you don't need to be fighting a gun that doesn't fit you. Having a new barrel installed could easily be done to any gun on the market. Any gun in order to help you make master or high master (assuming you've somewhat mastered the fundamentals) can be modified and accurized later on. If I wanted to stick with my Ruger I could have sent it to someone and had it rebarreled.

There's something nicely ergonomic about the 41. I have shot my best scores with them. I had one in the USAMU and now have a 1958 gun. I prefer the heavy 5.5" barrel. For me, nothing beats an S&W target trigger - clean and crisp break. 

That being said, jamming issues are usually solved with simple remedies like recoil springs, extractor tuning and good mags. If that fails, then the problem usually lies with the bolt. It is a replaceable piece in the slide. S&W provides great customer service and will pay to ship your gun both ways if you have any problem. They do take a bit of time though. 

Just my experience and $0.02 worth.

My best scores were shot with a 41 as well. The short barrel has been my preference. Of the two I have used one worked for many years using CCI SV on the short line and RWS Target @ 50. Ransom rested X ring at 50 with either round but the RWS was tighter. That gun was an older one with a 7 lb. spring (7.5 is stock). When it quit being reliable I got a deal on a newer model from the supposed bad quality years. I purchased a short drilled and tapped bbl. for it and a 7# spring. The bbl. was short chambered. S&W corrected it. Performed great for quite a few years more. I broke a firing pin retaining pin, repaired it and replaced the recoil spring. Wanting a little less weight I bought a Clark bbl. It didn't work. The chamber was a not quite concentric to the bore and was reamed to tolerance. I get sub inch groups at 50 yds. with most ammo bench rested. It is my favorite trigger of all the .22 autos I have shot. That being said My Ruger Mark iii 22/45 with a trigger job would probably have performed the same and likely not have needed any repairs had it been around years ago. I do not regret my choice of the 41 however. Hope that helps. Lol

I have a new 41, nothing wrong with a new one.

My first pistol was a new Ruger MKIII Target. Compared to my S&W M41 the Ruger has the trigger under the chamber and the trigger tends to get gritty after about fifty rounds. Covering the trigger area with a thin metal blast shield helped but grit still will eventually get between the transfer bar and the frame. The Ruger is also harder to access the mainspring for tuning. The Ruger has been great with CCI SV but some softer Eley, RWS, SK and Wolf ammo would have jams due to not cycling the bolt far enough back.

The M41 is a breeze to take down for cleaning. Several recoil springs are available and the mainspring retainer pops out easily for tuning the mainspring for different ammo. The Nelson conversion I have is also easy to tune.

lablover wrote:Someone posted on Facebook about this advantage arms conversions. Hmmmmm might be a better and cheaper option


Edit. Just saw the aa will not fit on a RO FRAME. Aghhhhhhh

Hmmm, works on mine.

Scott

I bought a 1980's made M41 in the early 1990's, because it was less expensive than buying new.  I found a slightly used model (from someone who did not shoot Bullseye).  From a quick online gun seller search, a new M41 sells for ~$1200.00.  I think I paid ~ $600 used for mine - taking account inflation, the price for a new M41 is a deal.

I also started with a Ruger (MK II) Government .22 and installed a Volquartzen trigger and sear (this was 25+ years ago).  As others noted, the clear access to the trigger group allows burnt powder to enter and requires fairly frequent cleaning.  I think that pistol also had some ergonomic grips (from Volquartzen).  It shot well.

The High Standards and S&W M41 have an enclosed trigger group.  That features keeps burnt powder out and virtually eliminates cleaning.  It also helps to keep the trigger pull consistent.

If I were to buy a used Bullseye pistol today, it would be a Connecticut made High Standard - provided it was cared for and not worn out.  Buying new, the S&W M41 is a great pistol and very reasonably priced, IMO.  FWIW, my 41 is ultra reliable shooting Remington target .22LR.

One thing of note about most .22 autos; they are all subject to the ammo available. If you have a gun that is X ring (@50 yds. especially) and also does it with cheap stuff and expensive stuff reliably, that is probably the one to get used to. I have always thought reliability is the first quality to look for. That being said, if a 41 is not reliable, it could be made so and is very rewarding when done.
Also Breakfree in the action area on a Ruger keeps the powder from getting too gritty and doesn't seem to affect let off. This has been my experience anyway.

I see a number of posts referencing KC who does good work on the S&W 41.
who is KC ?  how do I get in touch with them or him?
thank you.