Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

mikemyers wrote:Until an hour ago, I didn't know any of this.  I have a standard RCBS die, belling the case.

You guys are saying the bullet should push into the case for much of it's length using nothing more than hand pressure.  The smaller case diameter at the end of the expanded length will grip the bullet harder as you push it in with the press.  So I need a die that EXPANDS the case for a certain distance, and ALSO bells the case.

I have an RCBS Pro 2000 press, and I'm shooting Magnus #801 bullets.  Where should I order the appropriate die, and what is the die number?   Is there a specific name for this type of die?

mikemyers wrote:Interesting YouTube video about this:

mikemyers wrote:Chris, yeah, I should have watched the whole video before posting the link.  It's not what I expected him to talk about - he left off what you've told us about.

I called Redding, and spoke to "Roberta" (Phone (607) 753-3331).  She understood perfectly, and she tells me that Redding makes the die you have described, and even has it in 38 Special!

Part numbers are:
45 --                  96189
38 Special ----    96184

For the whole list, and technical description:
http://www.redding-reloading.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&Itemid=15&id=208%3Apremium-die-sets-for-handgun-cartridges

[size=36]Premium Die Sets for Handgun Cartridges[/size]
Designed for Utility, Precision, and High Production

The Premium Die Set for Handgun Cartridges consists of a three (3) die set which contains thefollowing; our Titanium Carbide Sizing Die, a unique Special Expander Die and a Premium Seating Die with our (Std) Bullet Seating Micrometer.

All dies have a large entry taper/radius for easy case entry and high production. The unique design of the special expander performs four distinct functions. The smooth entry radius is followed by the correct expanding diameter for proper press fit of the bullets. The upper section of the expanding diameter has a concentric ring which opens the case mouth slightly larger than bullet diameter to enhance bullet alignment. The final taper can provide a “bellmouth” on the case mouth when desired, usually when using lead bullets.

Chris Miceli wrote:some excellent advise from Jerry that applies to the 45 as well.

"one of the secrets to lead, is to form the brass to accept 90% of the bullet with only mild finger pressure.. The long 38 Hollow base wad cutters are approx. .580 long..Here I am loading PENN double end solids, which are approx .525 All but about .050 should slide into the case with ease.. No force..to prevent sizing the bullet down below bore diameter. The only dies I ever saw designed specifically for the long 38 wad cutters were the now extinct CH Auto Champ. This Dillion punch is custom ground.." Jerry Keefer

"pull several of your loaded rounds and mic them.. Usually, they will be small, even on the 45.." Jerry Keefer


"Remember, have the punch ground so there is enough adjustment to control the depth..Stop the forming so about .025/.030 of the bullet cannot be pushed in by hand.. This will prevent unwanted movement or set back during seating and or recoil.." Jerry Keefer

Chris Miceli wrote:

mikemyers wrote:Chris, yeah, I should have watched the whole video before posting the link.  It's not what I expected him to talk about - he left off what you've told us about.

I called Redding, and spoke to "Roberta" (Phone (607) 753-3331).  She understood perfectly, and she tells me that Redding makes the die you have described, and even has it in 38 Special!

Part numbers are:
45 --                  96189
38 Special ----    96184

For the whole list, and technical description:
http://www.redding-reloading.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&Itemid=15&id=208%3Apremium-die-sets-for-handgun-cartridges

[size=36]Premium Die Sets for Handgun Cartridges[/size]
Designed for Utility, Precision, and High Production

The Premium Die Set for Handgun Cartridges consists of a three (3) die set which contains thefollowing; our Titanium Carbide Sizing Die, a unique Special Expander Die and a Premium Seating Die with our (Std) Bullet Seating Micrometer.

All dies have a large entry taper/radius for easy case entry and high production. The unique design of the special expander performs four distinct functions. The smooth entry radius is followed by the correct expanding diameter for proper press fit of the bullets. The upper section of the expanding diameter has a concentric ring which opens the case mouth slightly larger than bullet diameter to enhance bullet alignment. The final taper can provide a “bellmouth” on the case mouth when desired, usually when using lead bullets.

i've had those dies.. they don't expand enough for a .452 lead bullet or a correct depth. the custom NOE are your best best. Or a custom one from Steve for the dillon. I call bruce for my star ones

ruger15151 wrote:....I am going to order a longer seating plug from NOE and see how that changes my accuracy.....

mikemyers wrote:

ruger15151 wrote:....I am going to order a longer seating plug from NOE and see how that changes my accuracy.....

I think it would be fascinating if someone with the ability to do so, could load three rounds using the Magnus 801 bullet, and test the accuracy three ways:
a) no special die
b) the Redding die, and
c) the NOE

My questions at this point are first, what kind of difference does it make to use either special die, compared to the standard way of doing this, with an ordinary expander die, and second, how much of a difference there is between the NOE and the Redding.

For someone like me, who is just getting involved in this, I like the simplicity of simply calling Midway and a few weeks later THE die will arrive.

I assume this is the right section to order from NOE:
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=89



To say I'm "lost" would be an understatement.

If I could get 95% of the benefit from going with the off-the-shelf Redding, and 100% from NOE, I would probably select Redding.

Chris, since right now I'm not doing any of this expanding, wouldn't the Redding be better than what I'm doing now?  In what way might it not be as good as finding one from NOE?   (It's 3pm in Miami, and I'm beginning to understand these things.  One day earlier I was oblivious to this discussion - I thought expander dies just provided the belling.  For an ordinary person, not someone with your ability, how much of a difference does this make?)

Chris Miceli wrote:

Jerry had I’m guessing hundreds of hours testing lead 38 bullets. What he and the other gentleman I can’t remember his name learned was a case that isn’t optimally expanded swaged soft lead. Which messes up accuracy.  Load a round and after you seat the bullet do not crimp it and pull the bullet out and measure it it should not be smaller or disformed in anyways from a new lead bullet

You forget that the products satisfy 99% of the masses. We are that last 1% well some of us are

mikemyers wrote:

Chris Miceli wrote:

Jerry had I’m guessing hundreds of hours testing lead 38 bullets. What he and the other gentleman I can’t remember his name learned was a case that isn’t optimally expanded swaged soft lead. Which messes up accuracy.  Load a round and after you seat the bullet do not crimp it and pull the bullet out and measure it it should not be smaller or disformed in anyways from a new lead bullet

You forget that the products satisfy 99% of the masses. We are that last 1% well some of us are

One thing I can do, is take apart one of the dummy rounds I just loaded, and measure the diameter of the removed bullet, compared to a new bullet.  I will do that today.

I would love to get to the point when I can feel I'm part of that 1%.  Until then, I have much bigger things to learn, most of them involving my trigger finger.

Again, thanks!

Chris Miceli wrote:

i've had those dies.. they don't expand enough for a .452 lead bullet or a correct depth. the custom NOE are your best best......

mikemyers wrote:

Chris Miceli wrote:

i've had those dies.. they don't expand enough for a .452 lead bullet or a correct depth. the custom NOE are your best best......

Chris, do you have the values for diameter and length that we need, for 38 Special and for 45 ?

Or, are the values calculated from this information:

http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php?topic=1795.0

I will call Redding, and get their dimensions, assuming they have the information available.

Chris Miceli wrote:Measure the bullets you are using