thinking of beretta m9/92fs for cmp/eic matches

First topic message reminder :

I have gone almost 3 month without buying a new firearm, and I had been doing well until today when I went to the local Cabelas and got to thinking. I had been considering a mil spec bare bones Springfield for EIC matches. Due to the some what scarcity of milspecs in the area and their rising prices, I had been eyeing the auto ordnance wwII version. However, I finally found out that it is a series 80 style, and didn't want to get it out of principle. While at Cabelas I saw the 92fs and thought... I dont have one of those yet, and I do have a brick of 9mm thats been sitting in the safe for 3 years. For the price of a decent used one or a new on online, It appears to be a better price deal than a mil spec 1911. I am aware that there are minimal m9/92fs bullseye gunsmiths out there, the price of upgradeing them are way more ecpensive, and 1911 is the way to go, which I have several already (none that are cmp legal). From what I thought i have heard, you can only shoot 4 cmp matches a year. That, mixed with probably never being good enough to do well in a cmp match, i figured a stock gun would be fine,...for its price. I'd rather shoot the match for "history/nostalgia" sake along with for fun sake. The one and only cmp match I have shot so far, I scored a guys target that shot like a 270 and he used a stock milspec with the low profile combat sight.

Im looking for comments/concers on the beretta. Im looking for an accuracy comparison of an out of a box m9/92 fs to a Springfield Armory Milspec. I know both aren't anything to write to write home about out of the box accuracy wise. I would prefer an M9 for the reasons that it is a military copy to be used for a military related match. The 92fs' appear to be bountiful, but for cosmetic reasons, I dont like the "read the owners manual" and the other warning embossed on the frame. As far as the 92 goes I see there is an argument/conversation between Italian vs american made. It would be nice to say that mine was made in America, however some people have said the Italian version's fit and finish is nicer.

Like I have said before, I dont plan on sending a CMP gun off to be accurized at this point, whether an m9 or sa milspec 1911. I may only put on an adjustable rear sight, maybe a new barrel later. I figure somewhere down the line I will get a decent cmp legal 1911, but I would still like to own/collect a Beretta.


Thanks! or Grazie!... depending on your recommendation

ciao, bye

I've got 28 points with the M9. My accurized Berettas are way more accurate than any 1911 I've tried with hardball. 

With that said, the trigger on a 1911 is way better than a Beretta trigger. People say that the short line is easier with the 9. I disagree. I think the short line is where the 1911 shines. Several of the full house loads give a push instead of a snap. I like WST and N310. 

For the P100, I think the M9 has the advantage. For a standard leg match, I think the M1911 has the advantage. 

I've been testing 50 yard ammo in the 1911 with available powders and bullets. I plan to try some Sierras when possible. For now, Hornady is the bullet that shoots best in my pistol.

Since starting this thread a year and a half ago, I have picked up two Beretta's, 92fs and m9a1, and settled with just the m9a1 as it came with a metal trigger. I was able to get it for little to no cost through gift cards and the sale of the 92fs. I was real happy with how it shot, albeit it was 2 handed in a PPC portion of my police bullseye league.

I have been dawdling with the idea of adding a new barrel, either the popular KKM or the Bar Sto. I was told the idea that the KKM with the 1:32 twist will "require" the expensive Atlanta Arms ammo, while  a  Bar-sto with a 1:16(I believe) twist would allow most average store bought 9mm to shoot well better than the stock barrel 1:10 (I think?)Not sure if that is entirely accurate but it sounds good to me!

saleen322 wrote:[size=15.555556297302246]where the 92 was shooting 3" groups give or take at 25, it is now 1.5" or better with the same load.[/size]

With that being said, both KKM and Bar-Sto offer their Gunsmith fit and quasi drop in. What are peoples own experiences with installing the semi drop in? Or even the gunsmith one. There is little to no info on line about fitting. Obviously the best option for this is to have a gunsmith do it, but if I could throw in a semi match barrel and get even 3" at 50y I'd be happy. This gun would be a back up/ alternative to my Clark Hardball. As much I would have liked to drop $3,100 on that Sam's Custom that was on GB, this is just to see if I can do it myself (and help of others.)

The other thing I feel that it would need is an over travel screw...?

Personal experience:  My out-of-the-box 92FS was tested in a Ransom Rest by a Marine armorer and printed an 18 (yes, eighteen) inch vertical spread at 50 yards, even though it would hold the ten ring all day at 25 yards.  I know that doesn't seem right, but that's what I, a fellow teammate and the armorer saw that day.  The same armorer tested a Sams' 92FS at the same time and it printed less than 3 inches at 50 yards.  I have no recollection of what ammo was used, but I'm sure it wasn't any kind of match ammunition.  I later swapped to the "drop-in" KKM barrel, which I had to help with a rubber mallet, due to a rather tight fit into the frame rails.  Off hand it started printing in the ten ring regularly at 50 yards.  I've not had a chance to Ransom test it again.  I also don't know how long it might stay tight at 50 yards.  It might loosen quickly as it wears in.  I didn't fire it much due to picking up the Sams' version fairly soon after the barrel swap.  It's been "resting" for most of the time since.

My Sams' early vintage gun (mentioned above) has a Bar-sto barrel and prints about 3-4 inches at 50 yards.  It has been suggested that I could get the group size down with a Sierra 125 grain bullet, but I haven't had a chance to do any testing.  The Hornady 115 grain bullet that worked well in the Bar-sto barrel was discontinued long ago.  Sams now uses the KKM barrel and has offered to "update" my gun with one, but the price is high and I still have a few Hornady rounds that fly well from the Bar-sto.

I put an over-travel screw in my original 92FS (the Sams' came with one, of course).  The Beretta rep told me I couldn't drill the original trigger, which I took as kind of a challenge.  Technically, he was right - a standard drill bit didn't do much, but there are other ways to make holes in metal.    (For those inquiring minds, I used a Dremel ball mill.)  But, I made a mistake - the all metal Allen screw is actually deforming the frame where it makes contact.  If you do install an over-travel stop, get one of the ones with a nylon tip.

Even though I've been trying to stick with the Beretta for the last couple years, I have not been able to match my 1911 high score.  But, then again, I shot the 1911 for a long time, so the odds are still in its favour.

I had Dave Salyer upgrade a 92 with sights, barrel, and fitting. His price, plus the cost of the Beretta was less than a hardball 45. The Beretta groups under 3" at 50 yds from a ransom rest.

www.aafirearmstraining.com - I have experience with Beretta M9's / 92xx as a competitor and as a gunsmith building them.  They are a lot easier to build and accurize than a 1911, if you have the tools and experience.  

In my opinion and experience you have a few questions to ask yourself about these guns: 

How accurate do I NEED it to be?  If you only can hold the gun at 1 inch at 50 yards, a 1/2" or 1/4" grouping gun will not do you any good until you improve as a shooter.  

If you need it to be match-grade accurate and good enough to get you up around the middle of the pack in a match, all you need is a barrel and a trigger job.  Both are easy enough to do for an experienced gunsmith.  In my experience a drop-in or semi-drop-in barrel is enough to get you to this point, no need for rails or an alignment bushing unless those make you feel better.  

If you want to WIN the match and you can hold the gun steady enough to take advantage of it, get a gunsmith-fit barrel.  It will give you the tight lockup in the same way that a match-grade bushing and barrel will on a 1911.  On a Beretta, the barrel locks up in a different way than on a 1911, so a bushing in the front end is not necessary (again, unless it makes you feel better to have one).  

In addition to the gunsmith-fit barrel for a high level of accuracy, there are several things you can do to improve the service life of the gun.  If you plan to shoot 2,500+ rounds per year through the gun, you may want to consider having the aluminum frame rails milled down and having some steel inserts fitted onto the gun.  The purpose of these inserts is to make the gun's fit tighter, but mostly to allow the gun to last longer, since the steel slide would be sliding back and forth on steel rail inserts vs the original aluminum frame.  You can also get a trigger with an overtravel stop, and a lot of people like to replace the plastic parts inside the gun with a "steel parts" kit (although I have never seen any of the dreaded plastic parts break - just mostly the locking block, as it absorbs a lot of shock and shear stresses).  

Make sure you replace your locking block if you have an older gun, especially if you plan to fire a lot of rounds through it or if you think it has had a lot of rounds through it.  The older ones are good for between 5,000 and 10,000 rounds, and when they break, the gun will be locked up and unusable until it is disassembled by a competent gunsmith.  

Hope this helps contribute to the discussion.  

-Patrick S
aafirearmstraining@gmail.com