S&W E-Series 1911 45

First topic message reminder :

I have just got into Bullseye / Precision Pistol shooting and one of the guys let me shoot his dedicated 1911 w/ Marvel 22lr slide and shot my best score ever . 

What I would like to know is if a S&W E-series 1911 45 ACP 5" would be a good candidate for a dedicated  22lr pistol with a Marvel OR Nelson lock back 22LR upper ? 

I have emailed a few gunsmiths and have gotten prices on a custom built lower and a marvel upper for around $1600 , which is fine by me , but for that price I would rather have the option of having 2 guns basically for the same price by supplying my own 1911 45 pistol & turning it into a 22lr , with an option of maybe shooting it in a 45 match if I would like . 

Any suggestions would be welcome .

Thanks for posting that.  I just ordered two more magazines from Nelson, and I'm now mostly using the CMP Eley.

Kp321 wrote:Colt Ace, GSG, Kimber, and Brownells magazines all function with my Nelson but the Nelson magazines work best. I just bit the bullet and bought ten so I am fixed for years. I did have to disassemble them periodically to clean the wax out when using CCI SV but a switch to Eley CMP bulk eliminated that chore.

Thanks for this advice , I will try a few of these brands and see if any of these work , or will just pick up a couple more Nelsons , but $25 apiece for them are a bit high IMO .  But I guess if they work they work .

Well after about 500 rounds through this setup, I am very disappointed in this Nelson Upper especially waiting 6 months for it !!! 
 Seems to get worse as I shoot it more , I have at least one round getting stuck in barrel  failing to eject ( CCI SV ) with every 10 rounds from each Magazine ( Nelson Mags ) Its not even very accurate as I put it in my bench vice and sighted it in at 50' and can only get an inch grouping !!!  
Not only that , it seems sometimes the 22 bullet stands straight up instead of going into chamber and sometimes wants to double-feed !! 
Hell, my wife's Victory is more accurate then this 1911 /Nelson set up , when I set the Victory up in the bench vise I  set a 50' target out there put one in the center and then put the other 9 right through the same hole !!!! 
Man what a waste of money I spent thinking 1911/Nelson conversion was the way to go !!  


Maybe see if I can trade it out for a new or fairly new S&W model 41

If you call Larry Nelson, and describe what is happening, he will probably spend as much, maybe more, time with you as he did with me, and figure out what is going wrong.  Cleaning the chamber helped, as did changing from CCI to Eley when the temperature was getting so high my wax was melting.  I sent those round back to CCI, who analyzed them, and gave me that diagnosis.  Now, with Eley "target" ammo, the gun is 100% reliable, and almost the same with the Eley you can buy through the CMP program (Civilian Marksmanship Program).  I haven't tested the gun on a rest, but at this moment in time, the Nelson has better precision than any of my other guns, including a Model 41.  

Depending on which lower you have it mounted, there are things you might need to do, as all 1911 "lowers" are not identical.  I tried the metal magazines, and went back to the Nelson mags - more reliable.  For me, the Nelson did not work that well on my Springfield lower, but worked perfectly on my Baer lower, and now my Caspian lower.

Things that helped me included cleaning the barrel, then using an oversize brush to clean the chamber, and replacing the stock recoil spring with the lighter spring that comes in the kit.

Larry will probably talk you through all of this, and he told me that if all the ideas didn't work, I would send him the kit back for them to evaluate and correct anything that was out of spec.  It never came to that.

The only remaining problem I have with the Eley CMP ammo, is that occasionally the gun doesn't fire.  Larry told me to pull the hammer back and fire it a second time, and as of today, this has worked 100% of the time.  This was worse with the CCI, and it was cured when I used the Eley "target" ammo.  For me, this was worst on days with the temperature up in the mid to high 90's, and the technical person at CCI who examined my returned ammo said that the problem was due to the wax on the rounds.  As a test, you can wipe off your CCI ammo, removing the wax - when I did that, the gun worked flawlessly with the CCI, in the same high temperatures.  A good friend of mine suggested I use Aguila ammo, which he thinks would fix this issue, but I haven't done that yet.


I'm no gunsmith, but it sure seems to me like my issue was the CCI ammo, not the gun.  I showed this to someone at the range, with the gun failing to eject round after round of CCI SV, and then functioning perfectly when I switched to the Eley 'target' ammo.  Even the wiped off CCI functioned as it should.

I called Eley, and had a discussion with them, as the Eley "target" ammo worked better than the Eley I got from the CMP.  They sent me a box of ammo to test which comes in a gray box, and is labeled as being for Semi-Automatic guns.  I'll test that the next time I get to the range and the temperature is up in the high 90's again.

mikemyers wrote:If you call Larry Nelson, and describe what is happening, he will probably spend as much, maybe more, time with you as he did with me, and figure out what is going wrong.  Cleaning the chamber helped, as did changing from CCI to Eley when the temperature was getting so high my wax was melting.  I sent those round back to CCI, who analyzed them, and gave me that diagnosis.  Now, with Eley "target" ammo, the gun is 100% reliable, and almost the same with the Eley you can buy through the CMP program (Civilian Marksmanship Program).  I haven't tested the gun on a rest, but at this moment in time, the Nelson has better precision than any of my other guns, including a Model 41.  

Depending on which lower you have it mounted, there are things you might need to do, as all 1911 "lowers" are not identical.  I tried the metal magazines, and went back to the Nelson mags - more reliable.  For me, the Nelson did not work that well on my Springfield lower, but worked perfectly on my Baer lower, and now my Caspian lower.

Things that helped me included cleaning the barrel, then using an oversize brush to clean the chamber, and replacing the stock recoil spring with the lighter spring that comes in the kit.

Larry will probably talk you through all of this, and he told me that if all the ideas didn't work, I would send him the kit back for them to evaluate and correct anything that was out of spec.  It never came to that.

The only remaining problem I have with the Eley CMP ammo, is that occasionally the gun doesn't fire.  Larry told me to pull the hammer back and fire it a second time, and as of today, this has worked 100% of the time.  This was worse with the CCI, and it was cured when I used the Eley "target" ammo.  For me, this was worst on days with the temperature up in the mid to high 90's, and the technical person at CCI who examined my returned ammo said that the problem was due to the wax on the rounds.  As a test, you can wipe off your CCI ammo, removing the wax - when I did that, the gun worked flawlessly with the CCI, in the same high temperatures.  A good friend of mine suggested I use Aguila ammo, which he thinks would fix this issue, but I haven't done that yet.


I'm no gunsmith, but it sure seems to me like my issue was the CCI ammo, not the gun.  I showed this to someone at the range, with the gun failing to eject round after round of CCI SV, and then functioning perfectly when I switched to the Eley 'target' ammo.  Even the wiped off CCI functioned as it should.

I called Eley, and had a discussion with them, as the Eley "target" ammo worked better than the Eley I got from the CMP.  They sent me a box of ammo to test which comes in a gray box, and is labeled as being for Semi-Automatic guns.  I'll test that the next time I get to the range and the temperature is up in the high 90's again.

Thanks for your suggestions  , but I am not in a position to find or buy a good 1911 candidate for the Nelson upper & I will not call Larry as I had 5 discussions with him during my 6 month wait and got lied to, too many times and what he said he would do for me he didn't come through !   
Larry told me CCI SV was the ammo of choice for his uppers, this is just a hobby as I have no desire in competing. 

I even stopped and cleaned the damn thing at the range and that didn't help matters .  I shoot indoors at 72 degrees as they keep it this way year-round , so melting wax isn't the issue I wouldn't think. 
Even bought the new CCI SC Blue Poly-coated ammo and it didn't feed for crap either, kept putting a notch in the lead bullet as it kept hitting the top of chamber . 
I  was told to use the 8lb spring by one of the old guys that shoots a marvel as the 9lb was installed , that didn't do anything to help matters either . 
Doesn't matter if I slingshot the slide or drop the slide release , it has problems . 

 As I have a wife that loves to shoot with me and she & I will go through  500 -700 rounds in a day of us shooting, And we shoot most Saturdays and Sundays at our indoor range ,  I may try some Aguila as its as cheap as CCI around my neck of the woods. Eley I dont see much , but when I do its over priced  at $7-$8 a box of 50 , that I'm not paying for. 
If the Aguila doesn't work I'll just trade it or sell it .  Haven't got time for this aggravation . 

Which 1911 lower do you have it mounted on?  
Is it a Springfield?

I have had a very different experience with Larry.  He has spent hours on the phone discussing many things, including what I need to do if I use the kit on a Springfield, and how metal magazines need to be modified to work properly.

Do you know for a fact you don't need to change the magazine release, which is required for some installations?  I posted a link for that a while ago.  Here's the video - the part I'm referring to starts 13 minutes into the video:

mikemyers wrote:Which 1911 lower do you have it mounted on?  
Is it a Springfield?

I have had a very different experience with Larry.  He has spent hours on the phone discussing many things, including what I need to do if I use the kit on a Springfield, and how metal magazines need to be modified to work properly.

Do you know for a fact you don't need to change the magazine release, which is required for some installations?  I posted a link for that a while ago.  Here's the video - the part I'm referring to starts 13 minutes into the video:

I am using a brand new S&W 1911 E-series , and many here said it was a great candidate for the Nelson upper and that they had no issues .    I have seen your video on youtube when I was looking up 22 1911 uppers last year .  I will look at it again .   

I am just really disappointed in this set up that I thought would make a good bullseye pistol but I should of listened to the wife and just built a S&W Victory with all the bells and whistles that are available for less than half the price and had a better gun then this 1911 /22 combo ever thought of being ! 

Or for the money I pissed away trying to make a 1911 , I should have had Ferking custom works just build me a complete pistol , would have been better money spent and know the damn thing worked !!! 
OH well , thank you for your advice, I won't trouble anyone anymore over this 

Hi again, it's not "my" video, it's one of the things I was looking at before deciding on Nelson.  The first time I watched it, I stopped before the end, but the next time I played it fully, and found the part about compatibility.  

I know nothing about S&W E-series, other than that it is an inexpensive 1911 according to:
https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=482092&page=2
Some people love it, others had questions about quality.  

It's obvious to me now that all 1911 guns are not the same - as Larry can explain to you in a lot more detail.  Again, watch the last part of the video.  Larry can explain to you better than I can, what to look for as the magazine is inserted into the gun.  My simplified explanation is that some magazine catches are too high or too low, and that needs to be corrected.  The Nelson did NOT seem to fit properly on my Springfield, but fit perfectly on my Baer and my Caspian.  

Maybe someone else here shoots the E-series?
Maybe someone will let you place your Nelson on their 1911 lower, and shoot a few rounds?

Maybe for a few dollars, not much, you can buy a bore brush one size larger than .22 and use it to clean the chamber, only pushing it in the distance of the chamber.  If there's anything stuck to the chamber, that should clean it.   In the meantime, you can disassemble the gun, hold the barrel pointing down, and drop a round into the chamber.  If it falls to the bottom with s small "plunk", that's the way it should be.  If it only goes in part way, and "binds", then that is an indication your chamber is dirty.

Finally, Nelson had a few kits sold with an extractor or ejector (I forget which) that they improved since then.  If that's the problem, they'll replace yours.  

.......and finally, finally, buy one box of Eley "target" ammo from Midway USA.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1392216306
It sells for around $7 for 50, plus shipping.  I tried one brick, and they loaded and fired 100% of the time, when my CCI was not working at all.  If it works perfectly for you, that's a good starting point.



Rather than a Victory, or a Model 41, or even the Nelson, the new Volquartsen seems to be a wonderful gun for Bullseye, and they will set it up however you want it.  I got tempted, but I've decided that I'll be using the Nelson from now on.  Lots of reasons.  

Good luck.

I went and practiced yesterday afternoon ( with a through cleaning before I left ) and was having fits with fail to eject rounds with about every 5 rounds shot from both Nelson magazines with CCI SV 50 rounds box. 

Well I thought I would try someting that I seen an old bullseye shooter do with his old Ruger MK3 , he puts a small drip of gun oil on the last round loaded on tip of bullet on each magazine and I thought I would try doing that  ( his 600 scores are 570's -580's ) , as I had a new box of 100 of the NEW CCI SV Blue poly coated 22lr and I'll be damned I shot every round with NO MALFUNCTIONS using the oil drop on every magazine I loaded with 5 rounds !
 I also shot another box of the CCI SV 50 rounds of the lead bullets using the oil trick with no FtF. 

I still did not shoot very well as I was constantly waiting on something to go wrong ! 
I hope I may of found a small miricle cure that I can now concentrate on shooting better . 
We shall see how it goes .

Did you ever try changing to a lighter mainspring? That plus the 8# recoil spring solved my failure to eject issues.

Dave

Congratulations - you have pretty much proved to yourself that the problem you are having is due to the ammunition.

(I tried the drop of oil trick, and it did help, but the next time I went to clean the gun everything was coated with oil.  I'm not sure that matters or not, and it will allow you to shoot up your CCI ammo.  To minimize the oil build-up, I got one of the small bottles of oil with a tiny metal tube on the top, and put just the tiniest amount of oil on the tip of the CCI bullet.  That's all that was needed.)

If you order a brick of the Eley "target" ammo, it will likely work just as well for you as the CCI with oil.  That was my experience.  


CCI sent me the replacement ammo for what I sent back, thinking it was defective.  In my case, I think it was just due to the heat.  When I take the Caspian 45 "upper" off the gun and re-install the Nelson, I'll try it out.

Like I said, congratulations!  Once you get to trust it to work, it should turn into a very enjoyable (and reliable) gun.



......added after reading Dave's reply - for me, the 8# spring didn't fix the CCI problem I was having.  It may have helped a little, but CCI rounds still got "stuck" in the chamber.  The advice I was given from Larry was to put the original 9# spring back in place.  That's what's in my gun now.

One thing I've noticed is that some mags are held high by a combination of nag catch and catch notch in the mag body.  Insert an empty mag and watch to see how it interacts with the ejector. If it pushes it up, it may rub.on the slide and add unwanted resistance. I experimented at the range with a pocket nife and a "bad" mag that was a constant problem.  After about three trims of the catch slot, the mag ran fine. Put another 100 rounds through it to prove it. Loaded five and 10 rounds to make sure.

If I had to guess, I'd say I took off about 0.015" if I have others in the future, they'll be modified in the mill, but it's always fun to fix stuff on the line right?

Dcforman wrote:Did you ever try changing to a lighter mainspring? That plus the 8# recoil spring solved my failure to eject issues.

Dave

Yes , I was told to put the 8# spring the second time I shot it in my Bullseye league after the first fiasco of refires as the #9 was installed when I got the upper . 
It went a bit better after one of the guys adjusted my trigger play some untill the last Rapid Fire series and I just gave up and quit shooting for the night ! 

When I get 2 refires for the night I just say the hell with it and quit as I hate stopping the line for my gun failure , as I feel I am holding everyone up and possibly making them shoot poorly , as I play a ton of golf and rhythm is very important and when I get out of rhythm from slow play I start playing bad , so I know it carries over to other sports , and this bullseye discipline is all about rhythm !

Spraywizzard wrote:

Dcforman wrote:Did you ever try changing to a lighter mainspring? That plus the 8# recoil spring solved my failure to eject issues.

Dave

Yes , I was told to put the 8# spring the second time I shot it in my Bullseye league after the first fiasco of refires as the #9 was installed when I got the upper . 
It went a bit better after one of the guys adjusted my trigger play some untill the last Rapid Fire series and I just gave up and quit shooting for the night ! 

When I get 2 refires for the night I just say the hell with it and quit as I hate stopping the line for my gun failure , as I feel I am holding everyone up and possibly making them shoot poorly , as I play a ton of golf and rhythm is very important and when I get out of rhythm from slow play I start playing bad , so I know it carries over to other sports , and this bullseye discipline is all about rhythm !

you seem to be describing the RECOIL spring
the MAIN spring powers the hammer and is in the grip

STEVE SAMELAK wrote:

Spraywizzard wrote:

Dcforman wrote:Did you ever try changing to a lighter mainspring? That plus the 8# recoil spring solved my failure to eject issues.

Dave

Yes , I was told to put the 8# spring the second time I shot it in my Bullseye league after the first fiasco of refires as the #9 was installed when I got the upper . 
It went a bit better after one of the guys adjusted my trigger play some untill the last Rapid Fire series and I just gave up and quit shooting for the night ! 

When I get 2 refires for the night I just say the hell with it and quit as I hate stopping the line for my gun failure , as I feel I am holding everyone up and possibly making them shoot poorly , as I play a ton of golf and rhythm is very important and when I get out of rhythm from slow play I start playing bad , so I know it carries over to other sports , and this bullseye discipline is all about rhythm !

you seem to be describing the RECOIL spring
the MAIN spring powers the hammer and is in the grip

OH , ok I got you now , I miss read that . 
 No, I have not had anyone mess with my S&W 1911 E-Series pistol ( its stock )  as I can not find anyone around my area that can work on my 1911 .

Great - that means you get to do it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0aK5MMLSdY

:-)

mikemyers wrote:Great - that means you get to do it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0aK5MMLSdY

:-)

What # spring do you all suggest I go to with the Nelson 22lr upper?

I was told that a 19# spring is good - I bought one, but haven't installed it yet.

mikemyers wrote:I was told that a 19# spring is good - I bought one, but haven't installed it yet.

Thank you , I'll look into this .

If you have light strikes after going to a 19# spring you may have to increase it. I had to go up to 21# on my Marvel and a friends Nelson to get good ignition, I think the firing pin system on these conversions could be improved.

I've seen conversions run like a top and seen what happens when they decide to act up. Your best bet is figuring out what's wrong or you'll drive yourself crazy with alibi's. Also give the Nelson guys a shot, they were very accommodating when I had issues with my upper.

Conversely, I believe I have an 18# spring in mine. No light strikes.

Dave

Dcforman wrote:Conversely, I believe I have an 18# spring in mine. No light strikes.

Dave

I'll most likely buy an 18# & 19# to have them on hand, as I am also thinking of buying the KC Custom Creations Roll trigger kit , and a 10-8 flat trigger for this 1911 that is if I can find a gunsmith to do all the work .

I shot the 1911 / Nelson upper tonight at my local indoor bullseye league and had NO FTF's or any malfunctions !!!  We just shoot 60 rounds SF, TF, & RF. 
The sad thing is my Slow fire really sucks if I could bring those scores up I wouldn't feel like I am at a standstill improving! 
 My score tonight was 151 SF , 184 TF, & 186 =521  with 7X's  ( 25 yds ) 

I struggle with slow fire, but I don't feel too bad as I have only started shooting Bullseye about a year and a half ago , and the guys that have been shooting for 30 yeas shoot 550's- 589's

Wonderful people have been giving me a lot of excellent advice in a different thread here.  You might want to read it, and see if it helps you too.
https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t13164-how-much-holding-drill-and-dry-fire-practicels-is-appropriate-during-training
It started off on one topic, but grew.
Some parts of it I understand better than others.
Some great people in this discussion......       
Ignore what anyone else shoots - the only competitor you need is yourself, "last time".  
Gradually, over time, and with lots of training (dry-fire practice included), I think you'll find you're progressing.

I was practicing the other day with my 50 foot targets and thought what the heck, I'll put them at 25 yards and see how well I shoot with the smaller black area , I figured if I could shoot a good score with a smaller target at 25yds I would have better scores on Wednesday bullseye matches on NRA 25 foot targets ( we shoot 25 yards indoors ) and amazingly I shot an 87-1X a 90-1X and a 89-1X .  

I didnt think that was to bad considering the smaller scoring area !  

Now I just need to find a Qualified gunsmith in Wichita KS to install one of  KC Custom roll triggers in my 1911 , no one seems to know a gunsmith in my area that can do this .