New Model Sig Sauer P210 Target ?

First topic message reminder :

Does anyone have any experience with the new USA built Sig Sauer P210 Target?

I have to say that the P210 is a much more stylish gun than a 1911. It has a certain svelte molding of the slide which really would be ruined by adding a full rail. No doubt the frame could be drilled for a bridge type mount (sorry, I tried a Les Baer Wad Gun and I don't like those mounts at all!). But it would be like putting a roof rack on a Ferrari!

Whilst I have found that my eyes don't like the micro reflex (Vortex Venom, etc.) sights, I do think that they suit this gun much better.

Do we not ruin the lines of John Browning’s beautiful creation in the name of accuracy by doing this very thing? If the Sig is truly a worthy target gun, wouldn’t you rather have a nice, round, concentric sight picture, as opposed to some goofy TV screen looking outfit teetering on the rear dovetail?
JKR

radjag wrote:But it would be like putting a roof rack on a Ferrari!

Some idiot has done that...

A roof rack on a F40...and it's not even a nice bike.

SIG already makes a plate system for the P320 X-5 that makes it easy to switch between iron sights and a dot. That's what I would like to see on the P210. That way, you could swap back and forth with minimal need to re-zero.

I got around to testing my 147 reloads with the P210 over my chrono at the end of last week on a 25 yard range.

As Tim Ovaert has already stated, the P210 likes 147JHP bullets. I had three recipes to test, all with ZERO 147 JHP's over Power Pistol powder in Winchester White Box (once fired range brass) with CCI Small Pistol Primers (I think!). First the chrono data:-

These data series correspond to these groups that were shot slow fire offhand at 25 yards on TF/RF targets (that was what I had with me).

I did not have time to run groups at 50 yards or do any full NMC's on that day. 

But clearly the softer 4.3PP loads produced the best groups and were definitely the most pleasant to shoot. Only produced 913fps, so maybe 4.4 grains of PP is the sweet spot. Or maybe another powder will be even better - I will do further trials as soon as my XL650 is back in working order (long story!).

Today I had a chance to do a "real world" Service Pistol trial - Sorry, on my local range using NRA 50ft targets at 45ft.

The 4.3PP load was definitely much easier to shoot TF/RF. I did not even bother trying the 4.7PP load after the first SF card, it is too harsh for me.

The scores are not great, particularly the second SF with the 4.5PP load (not the ammo at fault!), I kind of improved a bit as the 900 progressed (SF from L to R across the top, then TF + RF below, then the other two TF and finally the other two RF). But certainly good enough to produce a reasonable showing in a CMP EIC Service Pistol match.

My P210 has the standard SIG rear target sight, a narrow front sight from Dawson, a slim wood grip, the trigger is at Service Pistol weight. Although I did notice that the pull was quite inconsistent during the TF/RF strings which led to me releasing a few shots a bit before I was expecting.

I now need to do a similarly thorough evaluation of my 1911 9mm (and a couple of other options) before I decide which gun I will use for the next Service Pistol event. But I'm pleasantly surprised with the P210, it performed better than I expected. Good!

When I get a chance in the next couple of weeks, I'm going to disassemble the hammer bloc assembly and measure the specifics (wire diameter, ID/OD, #coils, etc.) of my (new) heavier sear spring. I did not install it, but I know it was "fashioned" from another small Sig spring. Then I'll order a bunch of them along with a few more trigger return springs that produce the nicer 2-stage 4# pull that I have now. With the heavier (than factory) sear spring, you can use a somewhat lighter trigger return spring and still maintain 4#, this...with quite a bit less sear engagement. I'll put together a detailed instruction file (as I did before), and post the link.

I've completed a new (Revision 2) instruction guide for swapping out both the trigger return spring and the sear spring, on the Sig P210A (Target or Standard). Recall this "experiment" was aimed at increasing the trigger pull weight to 4# for EIC competition, without simply winding up the mainspring using the adjustable barrel nut. In my first iteration, I used a trigger return spring that was a bit to strong. This caused one to pull through the release with little to no sear "feel" when the sear adjustment pin was set for a ~4# pull weight. Since then I've experimented with a slightly lighter trigger return spring, in conjunction with a slightly heavier sear spring. To me this is much more desirable, as this combination produces a two-stage trigger with a distinct "wall" followed by a crisp release (similar to my Geissele HS match rifle trigger). The spring specifications are towards the end of the file, and I have some available (see instructions). Of course, one could also proceed in the reverse direction, and decrease the factory trigger pull weight (as well as change trigger feel and sear engagement), towards the 2.5# CF weight limit. It seems the factory triggers are in the 3 to 3.5# pull weight vicinity. I have not experimented with lighter springs, however, the necessary dimensions and specifications for the trigger return and sear springs can be garnered from the supplier website (noted in the instructions). Any questions or comments, feel free to message me. Here it is:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x5oy76nzffp4ewl/installing_trigger_return_sear_springs_p210a_rev2.pdf?dl=0

I took the plunge and bought a 210A Target of my own. My plan is to use it for CMP matches, so dot mounting isn't a concern, but I will need to do some trigger work to get a legal 4# pull. Some notes:

1) Out of the box, my trigger would lift 4# on an NRA trigger weight tester. I was pleasantly surprised and thought that I might be match-ready with everything stock. Now that I've shot and dry fired it a bit, my 210A's trigger is down closer to 3.5 pounds. I will try to follow Tovaert's instructions for trigger adjustment.

2) Sight black neutralized the fiber optic rod in the front sight. I think it should be good to go now.

3) Magazines are expensive: about $50 from most sources. The cheapest source I've found is Tombstone Tactical in Arizona, which has them for $40.68 plus shipping. The target model mags have an extended steel baseplate which the "Legend" mags don't, to reach below the bottom of the target-style grips.

4) I replaced the original grips with checkered micarta ones from Armory Craft. They are heavier and "grippier" than stock, and while they still have palm swells they're smaller than those on the stock grips.

5) The 210A does feel a little under-sprung. Although recoil with factory ammo is snappier than expected, the pistol runs 100% with my reduced hand loads for the short line and I feel confident that it will deliver all the timed and rapid fire points that my trigger control allows.

I doubt that I will have a chance to shoot at 50 yards until next spring so it's going to be a long winter.

Armory Craft sells an adapter for a red dot sight. It installs in place of the rear sight. 

Jon Eulette has also recently asked for folks who would be interested in purchasing a slide-mounted rail. I'm on that list.

The problem with the pistol being under-sprung can be fixed with a new guide rod, which I have also re-designed, manufactured, and used in my P210A, for over 2000 rounds now. This re-design enables the use of three different commercially-available flatwire recoil springs: factory P210A (10.5#), Sig P938 factory (13.5#), and the Cajun Gun Works (16#) CZ P-01 spring. All three fit perfectly. I like the heavier P-01 CZ spring. Works great...and tightens lockup. I only shoot 147 gr bullets, at about 900 fps MV. Soft shooting and accurate. Forget anything other than flatwire springs in the P210A...there isn't enough room for conventional springs (old Swiss/German P210's had much longer guide rods). If there is enough interest, I can make more, minimum group of 10, unless someone in this business might want make and distribute them. My re-design eliminates the problem with tip breakage, which is common with the crappy factory captured rod. See photo. You capture it with a small screw for removal/attachment of the slide, then remove the screw during firing. Just finger-tighten...no need for tools.

Tim.

I will take one if you do make more please.

radjag wrote:Tim.

I will take one if you do make more please.

...added to the list.

Please add me to the list. Also, would like a trigger and sear spring from your 4# instructions if you still have some left. New to forum and haven’t figured out how to PM yet.

Wlw145s wrote:Please add me to the list. Also, would like a trigger and sear spring from your 4# instructions if you still have some left. New to forum and haven’t figured out how to PM yet.

Message me your contact information. Click on the "Messages" tab above, then "New PM" and send it to tovaert.

I just received a free replacement recoil spring guide assembly from SIG USA (after repeated phone/email and a wait of several weeks). The little retainer at the front end came off and disappeared (seems to be a common fault).

Without the retainer it is a serious PITA to get the assembly off and then back on the barrel for cleaning.

radjag wrote:I just received a free replacement recoil spring guide assembly from SIG USA (after repeated phone/email and a wait of several weeks). The little retainer at the front end came off and disappeared (seems to be a common fault).

Without the retainer it is a serious PITA to get the assembly off and then back on the barrel for cleaning.

I got a replacement, then chucked it in a lathe and used a file to turn down the OD of that swaged button on the muzzle end. Naturally, after a few minutes, the sliding washer and spring were free. I continued to polish it down until the muzzle end of the rod was about 0.001" smaller in diameter than the guide rod itself. Believe it or not, that last 1/8" on the front of the rod STILL broke off after a couple hundred rounds! That's when I decided to make my own design. 

Some people use it with the last 1/8" missing...I would highly recommend against doing that. Not only can you damage the flat spring assembling it, but imagine if it jams?

[size=16][i]"Some people use it with the last 1/8" missing...I would highly recommend against doing that. Not only can you damage the flat spring assembling it, but imagine if it jams?"[/i][/size]

Hmmm - I've shot maybe 300 rounds with the swaged button retainer completely missing! Including two EIC Service matches, one of which I won!

I will install the new assembly and keep a careful eye on it.

radjag wrote:"Some people use it with the last 1/8" missing...I would highly recommend against doing that. Not only can you damage the flat spring assembling it, but imagine if it jams?"

Hmmm - I've shot maybe 300 rounds with the swaged button retainer completely missing! Including two EIC Service matches, one of which I won!

I will install the new assembly and keep a careful eye on it.

I guess as long as the broken guide rod extends to or past, the muzzle end of the sliding washer (with the slide closed), it should not jam.

Count me in on one of those guide rods as well

1bayouboy wrote:Count me in on one of those guide rods as well

Yep...in.

Hi, new to the forum.  I've have a Swiss P210 CNC frame P318XXX for many years and just got a P210A target.  Still undecided about the trigger but side by side 25 rounds at 25 yds slow fire bullseye scored 1 point difference.  I would definitely be in for the springs mod and guide rod mod.  Will send a PM with my info Tim.  Merci beaucoup à tous.

Woelfer wrote:Hi, new to the forum.  I've have a Swiss P210 CNC frame P318XXX for many years and just got a P210A target.  Still undecided about the trigger but side by side 25 rounds at 25 yds slow fire bullseye scored 1 point difference.  I would definitely be in for the springs mod and guide rod mod.  Will send a PM with my info Tim.  Merci beaucoup à tous.

Okay no problem.

Just a quick shout out on this thread.  I have several pistols, but my all time favorite one right now is my German made P210 Target.  That pistol sits in my hand like it was made just for me.  It has the standard grips on it right now, but I am thinking of getting a set of the Nill target style grips for it.  I haven't used it in any competitions yet I guess because I don't want to beat up the gun too much, but it is one very accurate pistol.  It takes a bit for me to become familiar with the trigger pull if I haven't shot it in a while, but once I get tuned in to the trigger it is a hoot to shoot.  I am rather surprised to see that the 147 grain bullets do so well in these.  I reload and have been using 115 Hornady HAP bullets loaded to about 1000 FPS and the recoil is quite tolerable.  I just received an Amory Craft RMR adapter for it and will install that in the near future.  I have other RMR's on a couple of pistols including a S&W Model 52-2 and I like them a lot.  So thanks to all for the abundance of P210 information however I do have a question; are the German built P210 recoil rods as prone to breakage as the American built versions?  I was under the impression that there is a difference in recoil rods between the two pistols.  Thanks again, this is great information.

Rick H.

Rick H. wrote:Just a quick shout out on this thread.  I have several pistols, but my all time favorite one right now is my German made P210 Target.  That pistol sits in my hand like it was made just for me.  It has the standard grips on it right now, but I am thinking of getting a set of the Nill target style grips for it.  I haven't used it in any competitions yet I guess because I don't want to beat up the gun too much, but it is one very accurate pistol.  It takes a bit for me to become familiar with the trigger pull if I haven't shot it in a while, but once I get tuned in to the trigger it is a hoot to shoot.  I am rather surprised to see that the 147 grain bullets do so well in these.  I reload and have been using 115 Hornady HAP bullets loaded to about 1000 FPS and the recoil is quite tolerable.  I just received an Amory Craft RMR adapter for it and will install that in the near future.  I have other RMR's on a couple of pistols including a S&W Model 52-2 and I like them a lot.  So thanks to all for the abundance of P210 information however I do have a question; are the German built P210 recoil rods as prone to breakage as the American built versions?  I was under the impression that there is a difference in recoil rods between the two pistols.  Thanks again, this is great information.

Rick H.

How is the German-made recoil spring/guide rod retained? Is it a one-piece assembly? There is a guy in Germany who sells recoil rods and spring kits, and the spring is retained with a small screw, which can be removed prior to firing. My P210A recoil rod design is similar. Remember that a 1:10 twist barrel is pretty quick...no problem stabilizing 147 gr bullets at ~900 to 950 fps. I don't think the same can be said for an aftermarket barrel at 1:32 or even 1:16 twist. With those, everyone seems to prefer lighter bullets at higher MV.

Tovaert:  It would appear that the rod itself is one piece with no separate button on the muzzle end.  On the other end of the rod it appears that the end with the hole for the slide lock lever is screwed into the recoil rod guide.  There is a flat on the rod for possibly an open end wrench.  There is also a stamped notation on the end of the rod that states "max. 5Nm" which obviously indicates the end is torqued into the guide rod.  The overall length of the recoil rod from my German Legend Target 5" gun is 4.630" or 117.6 MM.  The diameter of the recoil rod guide is .275" or 7.02 MM.

I have a friend who is an FFL holder and supposedly he is ordering me a P210A American made target model and if/when it arrives I will compare the recoil rod assemblies.  

I will put one of my other concerns out to you, I know Sig has a factory sight pusher for the front sight for the older P210's.  When you can find them they bring big bucks and generally look like they have been through a couple of wars.  The "pusher" ends are many times in pretty rough shape and would need some TLC.  The factory tool doesn't really appear to lock the slide in place very well and it's just an opening the fits the contour of the slide.  Not very comforting to me and a rather half hearted attempt at a sight tool.  I have been trying to find out it the factory sight pusher will fit all the Sig P210 models or just certain ones.  In the meantime I have looked at a few other sight adjustment tools, but nothing seems to fit the bill, but the MGW Pro Sight pusher comes close.  The only problem is they don't make a slide adapter to hold the P210 slide.  I have sent MGW an email to see if they would consider making a slide adapter for this pistol.  I have a factory Kimber sight pusher that works in many applications, but it won't work on my German P210 as I can't get the pusher block "ears" deep enough to contact the sight dovetail, only the blade which isn't good.  More to come on this subject and thanks for any help.  

Rick H.