Jon Shue Video

I found this video fascinating, especially the effort Jon Shue goes through to fit his hand to his 1911, and what he does as he prepares to dry-fire (or shoot).
Live shooting sequence is at the beginning of the video.




I think it's a great video to show other shooters, who may come back to Bullseye shooting.  
I wish the video was longer, with more live shooting at the end.

Jon competed at the 2021 Dixie Matches at Gateway Rifle & Pistol Club April 16, 17 & 18.   He shot a 894 52x in 45 portion.  I watched him shoot a 100 10x in rapid fire.   Unbelievable.

Very interesting head-shoulder position. Very low, looks like he is settling his jaw on a collar bone. Does anybody else (from that level) do the same?

UnGe wrote:Very interesting head-shoulder position. Very low, looks like he is settling his jaw on a collar bone. Does anybody else (from that level) do the same?

Keith Sanderson, from our Olympic National team does.

Interesting! Good on ya Mike! You find good stuff! Would love more. A few things I noticed...Barrel appears to be in-line with the arm bones? watch his fingers feathering to get on the grip. Specifically, it looks like he puts the pinkie on first with the remainder following and wedging in on top. He also cants twists the gun counter clockwise before straitening up. This sets the elbow to allow a horizontal recoil bending axis with a stiffer arm. Going the other way with a twist gives a vertical recoil axis. The former gives a stiffer arm at the risk of tendon injury. I think you can do this with light recoil only and the AMU said as much in SAFS one year. His low line stance may require neck drop, shoulder lift, and arm pushout. Gives a straight back recoil pulse. I wasted too much time with looser arm and vertical stance. He's snugging up the torso by shifting shoulders back which moves balance back over the feet. Compare that to a forward lean. Really good stuff here. Being an occasional shooter, l have trouble getting a consistent good grip and only of recent realizing how important it really is

bruce martindale wrote:

UnGe wrote:Very interesting head-shoulder position. Very low, looks like he is settling his jaw on a collar bone. Does anybody else (from that level) do the same?

Keith Sanderson, from our Olympic National team does.

It would be interesting to hear thoughts about pros and cons of such position - obviously it is not black-and-white, otherwise everybody would use it.

Here's another video on grip and stance from the AMU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=752SU0KkpvY
Scott

UnGe wrote:Very interesting head-shoulder position. Very low, looks like he is settling his jaw on a collar bone. Does anybody else (from that level) do the same?

I noticed that too, and I wonder if it's accentuated by the fact he's aiming an open-sighted pistol. Lower sight line, slightly, from a scope...

It's also interesting how he bobs his head a few times while settling on the NPA. He looks almost like a pitcher doing a tricky wind-up.

If I'm not mistaking, Jim Henderson used/uses this technique as well.

AP

jscot111 wrote:Here's another video on grip and stance from the AMU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=752SU0KkpvY
Scott

Between you and Bruce, I have more questions than I know how to even organize.

I may not really understand most of this, but after watching Jon grip his gun, I've been emulating him, wiggling around bits and pieces of my hand to combine with the gun.  I used to have an issue where every time I picked up a gun and shot 5 rounds, the center of that group was likely to be different from earlier or later groups.  Following this concept, that problem is now eliminated.

Also, I was taught, and have learned to have my stance at a 45 degree angle to the target.  The recommendation in that second video is to have your stance perpendicular.

mikemyers wrote:Also, I was taught, and have learned to have my stance at a 45 degree angle to the target. 

Me 2, just started to re-train myself after reading more books

I was surprised to find no reference to 45 degrees even in the oldest book I checked (Competitive Shooting, original publishing - 1962)

Stand where you naturally point, then rotate by moving the rear foot to get on target. Let your body tell you how, don't force it!

bruce martindale wrote:Stand where you naturally point, then rotate by moving the rear foot to get on target. Let your body tell you how, don't force it!

Your body is very lazy. It tells you to slouch. It tells you not to lift this heavy piece in your hand. Body has to be trained to make things that are good to you to be natural continuously - not only for shooting, but for everything

What everyone has to understand is they are not the same as those Champions mentioned! We all are different. It's a mistake to look at any one of them and try to duplicate what they do. Think of your selves when first driving a car yet what you do now! Hop in your car, get it running and back out of your driveway and on to the highway traveling at 65mph or more with no more effort than sitting in front of the TV watching a race. Try to explain it to someone that has never drove a car! It's the same as asking a Pistol Champion how to shoot great scores, they will repeat the fundamentals! I can remember after Adam began shooting great scores, I understood there was nothing else I could do to help him other than support. I became his enabler! I did all I could to supply him with good equipment, ammo and getting to matches. I couldn't understand why he would have a radio playing while he practiced! On TV there was a program about scientist wanting to find out why some become champions and others also-rans. They decided shooting was the best to research since the shooter tries as much as possible to remain motionless. Cameras and wires could be connected very easily. They had the data of one female International small bore rifle shooter wired so all her body functions could be seen as well as the sights and target. She did very good, another was a male and he too did well! Third was another male but didn't shoot good at all. They interviewed each shooter afterwards, the Female said she was thinking of music and one of the classic sounds was in her head, slowly it faded and the shot fires, they asked the good male that said the same thing but music was modern. Then they asked the not so good male, he said sight alignment, trigger control, breathing and everything else involved in making a good shot! I seen his sight picture, wasn't any different than the two great shooters but impact was not the same! Thinking of the fundamentals while shooting is not good, you will do nothing more than analyze what you are doing. For example, thinking about trigger pull while shooting you will begin to find everything wrong with the trigger, weight is too high, it has creep, it moves too much and everything else. Stance is what is comfortable to you! Looking at other shooters their stance varies. Each have adjusted the position as to what was best for them! Never pick-up the gun with the shooting hand, place it in the perfect position with the opposite hand, if it don't feel good again take the gun into the other hand and replace it, do NOT Milk the grip! Notice Shue places the gun in his hand with the other, cycles the gun a few times, he's pulling the trigger to confirm finger location and grip, moving the gun with the other hand to opium position for him. He dry fires to confirm all is good with the stance and the placement of the gun in his hand!

It may have little in common with what you just wrote, but I remember two things.  One is when I tried my hardest to NOT think at all, just "do".  Another is when I plugged a cable from my iPhone into my electronic ear muffs, and put in my favorite song.

Eventually I gave up on all that - Cranky Thunder (from here in the forum) told me to put everything out of my mind, and endlessly repeat "watch the dot, wait for the bang" until the gun fired.

The good news is that Cranky's advice worked.  I was more relaxed, and trying to concentrate on just that one thing.  The bad news is that I no longer catch something I'm not doing well, and correct myself.

I was watching the 22 shooting Olympics a day or so ago - these guys, with their high tech rifles, are probably among the best in the world.  I think they were working just as hard, if not harder, taking their shots, as is possible.

My thought is that your Adam might make it all seem effortless, but put him next to Jon Shue or Brian Zins, and he will then be concentrating just as hard as we do.  

As you write, shooting gets easier as we get more experience - but that's only up to a point.  Take any athlete who is up to his level of ability, and ask him to do more - don't you think that will be just as difficult for him, as for someone to ask you (or I) to go beyond what we already know how to do?


(I love listening to music as I shoot, but I doubt that I am learning anything.  Maybe you know something I don't about how to improve while "relaxing".)

About your example:  "On TV there was a program about scientist wanting to find out why some become champions and others also-rans. They decided shooting was the best to research since the shooter tries as much as possible to remain motionless. Cameras and wires could be connected very easily. They had the data of one female International small bore rifle shooter wired so all her body functions could be seen as well as the sights and target. She did very good, another was a male and he too did well! Third was another male but didn't shoot good at all. They interviewed each shooter afterwards, the Female said she was thinking of music and one of the classic sounds was in her head, slowly it faded and the shot fires, they asked the good male that said the same thing but music was modern. Then they asked the not so good male, he said sight alignment, trigger control, breathing and everything else involved in making a good shot! I seen his sight picture, wasn't any different than the two great shooters but impact was not the same! Thinking of the fundamentals while shooting is not good, you will do nothing more than analyze what you are doing. "


We need an answer from some of the experts here, and I don't qualify.  But while I agree with that last part of what you wrote during a match, I do not agree with it during practice or training.  With nobody helping me improve, I need myself to do that, and if I don't realize what I'm doing wrong, I may never get to correct things and improve.  If there is nobody else to analyze what I am doing, I need to do it myself.

......but shooting while listening to my favorite music is SO enjoyable and relaxing!!!!!!!  And when things are going well, it's great fun.

I did not mean to imply that analyzing during practice should not be done but it depends on what is being practiced. If practicing shooting a 900 then it should be done as if it was a 900 match. Practice should be focused on what needs improvement. But when at a match you must accept what you came with and do your best with what you have. One has to understand when looking at AMU shooters that they focus on themselves, everything else is directed to others. About the only thing they are allowed to do with the pistol is clean it and adjust the sights. To be a good shooter the same must happen, if there are gun issues and you intend to work on the gun, remove the shooting hat and put on the gunsmith hat. You have to be your best source of inspection, even if someone watches you the only help you will get is what is best for them not you! Like stance, there is no magical stance that will make you a better shooter except the one that is best for you! It's up to you to find it! The only thing you can correct is yourself. If the gun shoots bad that can be corrected by someone else, if the scope don't work it can be replaced. Ammo not working good change it! What you can't do is replace yourself but the AMU can, they simply put in another shooter! Practice is exactly that, if practice is focused on shooting a 900 but you are noticing trigger issues, change the practice and focus on trigger issue or anything else that presents itself. Analyze yourself don't listen to others, sure you can try it but don't force yourself into someone else's mold. Like 3 second drill, I had a friend that past away Floyd Aikman. He was 2650 shooter but if he were to use the 3 second drill he wouldn't get a shot off! Yet he was a very good rapid fire shooter!

I took a two day Bullseye clinic with Jon Shue and William Bethards and I watched Mr. Shue shoot 70 rounds into the 10 and X rings at 50 yards using the same technique demo in the video.  He is a machine and does not change his routine from shot one until he fired shot 70.  This was not part of the clinic, it was during a lunch break and I watched Mr. Shue put in some practice time.  Mr. Shue and Mr. Bethards are a class act and great instructors.   If you ever get a chance to take one of their Bullseye clinics, don't hesitate, sign up you won't regret it.

Watching the beginning of the video over and over again, I notice that he raises the gun while it is canted to the left, and once his arm is extended and raised, he straightens the gun as he lowers it getting ready to shoot.

What might be the reason as to why he does this?

Creates forearm tension and stability?

mikemyers wrote:Watching the beginning of the video over and over again, I notice that he raises the gun while it is canted to the left, and once his arm is extended and raised, he straightens the gun as he lowers it getting ready to shoot.

What might be the reason as to why he does this?

I believe Bruce mentions this in the sixth post of this discussion. I don't know enough about the anatomy involved to quite understand it.

bruce martindale wrote:Interesting! Good on ya Mike! You find good stuff! Would love more. A few things I noticed...Barrel appears to be in-line with the arm bones? watch his fingers feathering to get on the grip. Specifically, it looks like he puts the pinkie on first with the remainder following and wedging in on top. He also cants twists the gun counter clockwise before straitening up. This sets the elbow to allow a horizontal recoil bending axis with a stiffer arm. Going the other way with a twist gives a vertical recoil axis. The former gives a stiffer arm at the risk of tendon injury. I think you can do this with light recoil only and the AMU said as much in SAFS one year. His low line stance may require neck drop, shoulder lift, and arm pushout. Gives a straight back recoil pulse. I wasted too much time with looser arm and vertical stance. He's snugging up the torso by shifting shoulders back which moves balance back over the feet. Compare that to a forward lean. Really good stuff here. Being an occasional shooter, l have trouble getting a consistent good grip and only of recent realizing how important it really is

SonOfAGun - I'm reading this over and over, but I don't understand it.  I don't know enough about Bullseye to really appreciate this, although I can play the video in slow motion over and over, and try to replicate some of what I see him doing.  Maybe I should copy that part of the video, convert it to slow-motion, and re-post it here?

The part you should be replicating the most is the process, in that each shot is conducted in exactly the same manner each time.

The fact that he rubs his cheek on his shoulder isn't necessarily where the the magic is, it's that he does his process exactly the same for each shot.

Rubbing your cheek on your shoulder may not improve your shooting, but doing your process exactly the same each time probably will, as long as your fundamentals are good.

There have been many discussions on how important developing a shot process is. If all shots are to land in the same spot each time, everything prior to the shot landing needs to be the same each time. (with the exception of ammo and gun inaccuracies)

No argument to what you wrote, but I'm sure there are things that just about all of us can learn how to do better from watching videos like this.

I used to pick up my gun with my shooting hand.  Then I learned how to feed the gun into my shooting hand, using my other hand.  I suspect that all the "fiddling" that Jon does once the gun is in his hand, is designed to exactly replicate the grip he has developed over time.  

I never considered doing all the things Jon does.  There must be a reason, or he wouldn't do it.  So yes, I need to do the same "things" time after time, as we all do, but I suspect there are very good reasons why Jon does this, and I'd like to emulate him, and knowing the reason why he does them can only help.  

Maybe you're right, and it's just a "process", doing A leads to B which leads to C which may lead to doing C again, and again, which leads to D.  Maybe doing this process puts him in the right frame of mind to confidently put a round into the X.  

Or, maybe there are specific things he wants to do, and he'll repeat as necessary until he is comfortable with what he's done.


There is a better chance I'll win the lottery tomorrow than I will shoot like Jon.  That's not the point.  I'll be happy if I do better tomorrow than I did yesterday.

......and blindly copying advice from these guys is not always a good idea.  Brian Zins explained where to put one's trigger finger, but my long-distance-coach told me that this is good for Brian, but it's probably not good for me.  So I stopped doing something that felt uncomfortable.


Meanwhile, back to what you just posted, if I'm going to do these things as Jon does, and do it the same every time I pick up the gun, I need to revise my own shot process and document them.  I learn better when I have things in writing.

Maybe I can ask here if this is what many of you do?  I've never had an opportunity to watch someone very good at Bullseye getting a gun into their shooting hand.  Lots of people write and talk about grip, but nobody has described something like what I see Jon doing.     .......I know, I ask too many questions.

I recall someone stating that they had watched Brian shoot, and each SF shot appeared to take exactly the same amount of time from when he left the bench to when the shot broke. 

Consistency and execution of his shot process.

At least that's what I work on most lately. The consistency of my process and how it relates to the results.