Jon Shue Video

First topic message reminder :

I found this video fascinating, especially the effort Jon Shue goes through to fit his hand to his 1911, and what he does as he prepares to dry-fire (or shoot).
Live shooting sequence is at the beginning of the video.




I think it's a great video to show other shooters, who may come back to Bullseye shooting.  
I wish the video was longer, with more live shooting at the end.

You probably mean something like this?
     https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/12/30/watch-bullseye-pistol-shot-process-with-brian-zins

There is a misconception, particularly amongst inexperienced shooters, that you will be successful if you imitate EXACTLY what a winning shooter does/uses/thinks.  A coach I once had called this “the carrot in the ass theory.”  He reasoned that if a person like Shue or Zins win the Nationals with a 6 inch carrot in his butt, there are those who would scour the produce aisles looking for the exact same carrot.    Shooting doesn’t work like that.  There are fundamentals and there are differing techniques of which some are better than others, but for every national champion there is one thing in common: applying the fundamentals using a technique that is sound and robust in a consistent process.  So, Shue’s position and stance MAY work for you, or not.  You won’t know unless you try.  

The real issue I’m finding is that I think I have a decent understanding of where my process is, but I’m not sure how to identify what IS working and what is NOT.  And that is my dilemma at the moment. The struggle continues.

An elderly gentleman was at my club's range yesterday and was kinda watching my normal practice session (I am concentrating on 45 SF at the moment). Of course I was, as usual, the only one with a target frame out at 25 yards (my range's limit, unfortunately). I am nervous on club/public ranges and use my Sordin muffs with which you can hear a pin drop, I overheard him muttering "fascinating" as he stood back and observed my bench organization and shot process - not to say that by Bullseye standards mine is anything special.

My point here is, to reinforce Wobbly - without the carrot! - observing without truly understanding is just spectating. No doubt there are numerous specific aspects of Shue's technique that are relevant to almost any aspiring shooter, but to try to just copy it wholesale is a fools errand. IMHO.

1.  Pick up gun. Shoot gun.
2.  Pick up gun.  Shoot gun better.
3.  Repeat #2.

Simple.

Wobbley wrote:There is a misconception, particularly amongst inexperienced shooters, that you will be successful if you imitate EXACTLY what a winning shooter does/uses/thinks.  A coach I once had called this “the carrot in the ass theory.”  He reasoned that if a person like Shue or Zins win the Nationals with a 6 inch carrot in his butt, there are those who would scour the produce aisles looking for the exact same carrot.    Shooting doesn’t work like that.  There are fundamentals and there are differing techniques of which some are better than others, but for every national champion there is one thing in common: applying the fundamentals using a technique that is sound and robust in a consistent process.  So, Shue’s position and stance MAY work for you, or not.  You won’t know unless you try.  

The real issue I’m finding is that I think I have a decent understanding of where my process is, but I’m not sure how to identify what IS working and what is NOT.  And that is my dilemma at the moment. The struggle continues.

 I found this looking for some answers, it may help.by CR10X Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:43 am

My personal opinion: 

Train more at 50 or at 25 with a B16 target, and work on slow fire.  Within each class, I found that getting a point on the long line was worth getting 2 points on the short line. (Eventually, there are not that many more points to get at the short line.) AND better consistency at the long line will pay off with more X's at the short line.  

So, for training to get to the next class, work on the long line shots.  Learn to see what a good shot looks like before it goes off and repeat it.  Learn when to let the shot complete and when to start over. Learn to call the shots completely (from acquiring the dot / sights and operating the trigger and until the shot is complete).  Train by calling the shot and marking it on a target beside you on the bench, then scope the shot and mark it (compare the call with the actual).  Eventually you will see the timing of your minimal wobble and then work to getting the shot within that time frame.  (Anything longer is wasting time, ammo and points and reinforcing a less than optimum performance.)

Dryfire every day if possible but only 10 to 20 minutes of real CONCENTRATION).  Just pulling the trigger for an hour ain't productive dryfiring and could be working against the mental state we need for shooting.  Work (train) on some specific part of the shot process and really concentrate on that; don't just stand there pulling the trigger the same way and expect to get better (unless you just want a stronger flinch).  Train on just seeing the sights, trigger operation consistency, grip, etc., etc., individually.  Find one part for each session and work on that part. 

Lastly, study the good shots.  Review everything mentally about that shot, what you saw, felt, timing, calling it, recovery, etc.  Quit asking what happened on the less than acceptable shots and start asking what happened on the good ones.  

Just a couple of thoughts in the morning.  

CR

CR10X
NRA Classification : High Master
Posts : 1528
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

 

Watching a champion shoot will not help you! Simply put it's his way to prepare to shoot, align his body in the way found that will provide the best results for him! The most important thing to learn is the fundamentals! Another is to shoot white paper, the back side of the target. Do not shoot at the target side until you can shoot a 100 from the blank back side! Long time ago Zinns gave me a copy of the manual made by the Marines that had the instructions along with an error explanation of shot group. I remember only one, large group size was due to seeing a hole in the target and attempting to use it as an aiming point! I would think the two best manuals will be The Army Marksmanship guide for Pistol and the Marine manual mentioned above. I don't know what I did with the copy I had of the Marine manual. At one time I had quite a few Army manuals that were extras not given out to students at the School the Army did at Camp Perry. I was giving them to new shooters at my Gun Club. Not sure if I can get more since Adam retired.

Blank targets.
I was mentored by LtC Miller who said he learned everything he knew from Joe Benner. 
On blank target firing, LtC Miller said adjust sights down so the shots are below the view of the aligned sights framed on the paper.

It used to be you could write the commander of the AMU and request one.  Eventually it would come in the mail.

Now you can purchase one from the CMP.  https://estore.thecmp.org/?page=2&pagesize=24&cat=BKS&sub=all&sort=name&mode=grid

If It's available from the CMP then if learning to shoot get one! Not sure where the Marine manual is available but at one time Zinns posted part of it. However he didn't include the evaluation page that explained various groups when shooting white paper. I know a few top shooters when they shot a poor group (poor for them) would say they will be shooting white paper for a while.
 When you shoot a good shot you will have what's known as an Ah Ha moment. Everything done was what was needed and you realize what is required so somewhere in your mind you with think AhHa that's what is required. However be careful of the false AhHa moment. It's usually when you know something was not right, you called the shot as 7 but you scored an X.
 When I was probably in expert class shooting rapid fire I was kinda slow, target started turning after 4th round fired. I had to quickly get off another shot. A 7 is better than a 0! I did see paper fly when I fired the shot, when looking at my targer before covering it with another I had a skidder X, went form one side of the X to the other. I said to myself AhHa that's the way to shoot Rapid fire so on the next string I did! In 5 shots I think the highest score I had was in the 8 ring. So I realized that was wrong so when back to the way I was shooting for the next 5 but the total score was poor due to my shot gun pattern first 5 shot string.

Jack H wrote:Blank targets.
I was mentored by LtC Miller who said he learned everything he knew from Joe Benner. 
On blank target firing, LtC Miller said adjust sights down so the shots are below the view of the aligned sights framed on the paper.

  Jack, I like that idea. I will try it that way because once I get a couple of shots fired, I would aim for the holes.
Thanks, Stan

Consider the possibility that aiming AT something, anything, is not the best way to do this.

Suggested reading:   http://bullseyepistol.com/salyer2.htm

Some shooters when there was only iron sights or when shooting service pistol would use Sub-Six hold, white area below the black. Seem to work but when I tried it and did very well but I would without noticing it return to Six o'clock. Probably due to shooting 6 o'clock hold for long time. Now having Red Dot I'm using center hold.
 What most shooters don't understand iwhere all that movement when trying to shoot at 50 yards is from. If I were to take a 4" pipe and extend it from the 50 yard target to the bench and made an adjustable mounting device to the pipe would remain stationary so as to be adjusted to the shooter. When the gun is in the center of the pipe is also at the center of the target. It's not hard to understand that if I were to cut all but a few inches of the pipe the entire length is not necessary. I doubt any shooter here would move the gun in such a way that it is hitting the sides of the pipe! Even if it did and the gun fired it would be a 10! The problem is angle, a very small deviation in angle will result in large deviation at 50 yards.Therefor much of the movement is angular and often caused by correction as red dot moves off center. The best is too accept wobble. Another error that has been created by some writers of pistol target shooting is to stop pulling on the trigger when sights are not in center of bullseye! That is incorrect, in slow fire when minimum arc is achieved constant increasing pressure is applied to trigger until it fires. If for some reason arc increases or other problems abort the shot bring the gun down. You should not use more than 20 seconds to fire a shot in slow fire, longer results in fatigue and arc of movement increases that also included the eye!

This post maybe doesn't belong in the forum, but I couldn't resist adding it to this thread.  If you have enough patience to watch through it, you'll find Dan Mathews (Broderick Crawford) teaching a young boy how to shoot.  What a different world we lived in back in the 50's.  Having a "toy" gun back then, or a BB gun, was perfectly OK.  It's enjoyable to listen to Dan's explanation of how to hold a gun and shoot.

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3oBxtJUdjo

I think it's pretty much what I was taught, a lifetime ago.  

I think a lot of people here will enjoy it as much as I did/do, but it can be removed if it's not appropriate for this forum.  Or, maybe it will bring back memories of how many of us first got involved in shooting.....

UnGe wrote:Very interesting head-shoulder position. Very low, looks like he is settling his jaw on a collar bone. Does anybody else (from that level) do the same?

Olympic guys go that, it is part of hanging the gun off your hard bones and ligaments. The concept is blood pumps through your muscles and the less support that comes from muscle the less movement. Yur Yev wrote chapters in his book about this science.