CMP 2023 rule changes

by rsp 1/6/2023, 4:28 pm

I was just looking up something in the as-issued 1911 rules and noticed the CMP has new rulebooks for 2023. A couple of the changes seem significant to me. Thoughts?

https://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/PistolRuleChanges.pdf

Highlights:

No more jacketed bullets required for EIC Service Pistol, or M&P/As-Issued for that matter. All CMP matches are going to use "any safe ammo".
Civilians can be a "new shooter" in the NTT match for *two* years.
No more list of approved service pistols. Any service type semi-auto, in caliber 9mm-.45 ACP, meeting the requirements (open sights, symmetrical grips, 4lb trigger, <5.5" bbl, etc) is OK.

by Merick 1/6/2023, 5:38 pm

Now that I've loaded the last of my primers behind full power jhp loads I can enjoy a season of getting taken to the woodshed by people shooting powder puff lead loads.

by Jon Eulette 1/6/2023, 6:30 pm

Hmmmm, guess I’ll be shooting 3.0 BE 185 lswc in my next SP match with my fast twist barrel. Should be fun!

Truly a sad day:(
Jon

by SingleActionAndrew 1/6/2023, 7:48 pm

Just bought my hardball last fall!

by RoyDean 1/6/2023, 8:19 pm

Yay! 66 year old Tyro last year - 67 year old Tyro this year. Yay!

Civilians can be a "new shooter" in the NTT match for *two* years.

by Jon Eulette 1/6/2023, 10:11 pm

Someone just pointed out to me that .38 spl will now be legal. Gonna see S&W 52’s and 1911 .38’s on the line.
We should remove the word “service” from the “service” pistol match.
Should be called “Run What Ya Brung” Match.
I completely understand wanting to draw more competitors, but we should’ve made a NEW Match for that. Service Pistol is honestly in the toilet now.
What’s next? Larger scoring rings? Shot at 7 & 15 yds? Yeah I’m being a smart ass now but the line has really been crossed. Maybe call it the “Woke” Match?
Yeah I’m not happy.

by RoyDean 1/6/2023, 10:16 pm

I'm with ya JE. Especially having spent a lot of your time and my money trying to get a 1911 45 Ball Gun to work with my sad old eyes!

Ho hum!

by **Wobbley** 1/6/2023, 10:28 pm

I seem to recall a lot of similar wailing and gnashing of teeth when they allowed ARs with scopes/ARs/Your own ammo/ in the Distinguished Rifleman events. People adjusted and we moved on.

by Wes Lorenz 1/7/2023, 2:15 am

I think the issue is still up in the air. RSP's post is not the same as the CMP's online rule book.

- Summary of Changes – CMP 2023 Pistol Competition Rules - (no revision shown)
Note this sentence in 4.1.1:
"The pistol must be a semi-automatic pistol of a type that was designed for general military, law enforcement or other similar duty use."

The S&W 52, 1911(38spl), Sig 210(.32 &.38), & Pardini GT45; (and other pistols unknown to me) don't fit this requirement.
The good part is the beautiful CZ's (based on the 75) are legal now if they are under 42oz.

- from online rule book, revision 01/03/23 -
Note this sentence in 4.1.1:

a) Pistol Design. The pistol must be a semi-automatic pistol. The pistol design should be of a type that is suitable for use in a general duty scenario (i.e., military, law enforcement, etc.).

"should be & suitable" leaves it wide open as to what is acceptable.

No issue with the ammo change as those who practice/train get points. The minimum scores are still the same.

My .02

by Axehandle 1/7/2023, 4:05 am

Hate to hear it. Still remember the complaining about the 9mm. Heard it said that the badge won with a 9mm should be smaller than the ones won with a 45. Smile

by RoyDean 1/7/2023, 4:11 am

The bottom line is that, regardless of these "tweaks", the top military "Marksmanship Units" guys, current or recent -ex, will continue to rule the roost. And so they should. Gotta be proud of the commitment and endeavour that all of them exhibit. And I'm not even an American!

by chiz1180 1/7/2023, 6:45 am

Jon Eulette wrote:Someone just pointed out to me that .38 spl will now be legal. Gonna see S&W 52’s and 1911 .38’s on the line.
We should remove the word “service” from the “service” pistol match.
Should be called “Run What Ya Brung” Match.
I completely understand wanting to draw more competitors, but we should’ve made a NEW Match for that. Service Pistol is honestly in the toilet now.
What’s next? Larger scoring rings? Shot at 7 & 15 yds? Yeah I’m being a smart ass now but the line has really been crossed. Maybe call it the “Woke” Match?
Yeah I’m not happy.

Ok when is the last time you shot a service pistol match? Better yet, when is the last time you shot a service pistol at Perry? Bottom line people both non Distinguished and Distinguished don't shoot service pistol matches, with the exception of at Perry. The reason it has got to this point is people got distinguished then never touched their ball gun again. So Jon if this is so much easier, show up to Nationals with your lead loads and win the P100 or NTI (or both), it would be nice to see you on the stage.

by Merick 1/7/2023, 7:19 am

-Obviously the 1911 qualifies
-The 38 special of any safe loading is between .355 and .452
=>be prepared to get scorched on the short line by the few midrange 38 1911s in existence because that's the rules now. AMU is probably checking their archives about how to build them right now, if they haven't been working for months already.

by ric1911a1 1/7/2023, 8:39 am

I'm going to have to dig out my Giles .38 Special.

I still need 4 points............

Being 73, I should probably get to it, if I'm going to.........

Ric

by jglenn21 1/7/2023, 9:28 am

We routinely have distinguished and non shooting in our EIC matches at state and regional matches. Yes even the AMU shooters who attend regularly. I too am not excited about dropping the jacketed bullet rule but, it should be an interesting year in EIC.. now where is my wife's 52-1

by Jon Eulette 1/7/2023, 9:49 am

chiz,
It’s not about winning with lighter loads or using lead bullets. It’s the continual degradation of an event.
I liken it to allowing Tesla’s in NASCAR or aluminum bats in MLB. NASCAR fans would start a civil war over that. Hell Tom Brady was suspended for low air pressure in a football.
The term “service pistol” should mean exactly that. There has always been a progression of service pistols. SIG is the latest.
I also know the best shooters are going to win regardless of what pistol is being shot, it’s always been that way.
History should mean something. Libtards are tearing down statues and changing the names of military bases and sports teams. CMP just did the same thing to service pistol distinguished program.
Jon

by chiz1180 1/7/2023, 11:15 am

Jon Eulette wrote:chiz,
It’s not about winning with lighter loads or using lead bullets. It’s the continual degradation of an event.
I liken it to allowing Tesla’s in NASCAR or aluminum bats in MLB. NASCAR fans would start a civil war over that. Hell Tom Brady was suspended for low air pressure in a football.
The term “service pistol” should mean exactly that. There has always been a progression of service pistols. SIG is the latest.
I also know the best shooters are going to win regardless of what pistol is being shot, it’s always been that way.
History should mean something. Libtards are tearing down statues and changing the names of military bases and sports teams. CMP just did the same thing to service pistol distinguished program.
Jon

My point was not about winning, my point was that people at the local level are not shooting the matches. I have put up $100 as price money for a service pistol match (did the same for the 22 EIC match), the match was advertised as such, and we only had two people from the 20 that showed up at the match willing to shoot it. I even brought extra guns and ammo and was willing to cover the entry fee. The match and badge mean nothing if no one is shooting it. Am I happy about the rule changes nope, in the same way that I disagree with rock river combo ribs being allowed last year. The way I look at it, if they do nothing the match and badge dies, which is extremely sad. In my personal opinion what really killed the Service pistol distinguished is people getting the badge then refusing to shoot it again. How many times have you seen ballguns for sale from someone who just got their badge?

by Allgoodhits 1/7/2023, 12:41 pm

With the fall off in attendance it is more and more difficult to earn Distinguished, unless one is able and willing to go to Perry or something similar. I have never shot in an EIC Match where a "second leg" could be awarded, due to the low attendance number. In fact, a fair number of EIC matches were cancelled at the matches because not enough non-Distinguished to even award a single leg.

Requiring a "big leg" should be amended. A substitute for a "big leg" could be a "score" to takes its place. Consider, one could shoot a few 260's and if done at Perry, they could become Distinguished. Whereas, one could shoot five 285's or even 295's at smaller matches where only one leg could be awarded, and they would not be Distinguished. They may have won every match they shot, may have way more than 30 pts, but no big leg due to failure of others to show up, not their skill or performance.

Maybe something like one must earn at least 30 pts and one of the legs earned must either be an 8 or 10 point leg, or one of the 6 point legs had a score of at least _________ . Two seventy, 275 may be something to consider in lieu of the big leg requirement.

Once one has earned at least 30 points and for whatever reason they cannot or do not want to travel to a large match, it creates another situation. They can do nothing to help their cause of earning Distinguished, and by them shooting, then they if they win, will hurt someone else chance of at least trying to earn a leg. If they do not shoot, there may not be enough for any leg to be awarded. I think this is killing EIC at the local match level. Just a thought or two.

by Chase Turner 1/7/2023, 2:32 pm

I'll wait until after Perry, but I'll do some ciphering on non-distinguished scores from last year to this year.

Should we start a pool on whether or not this rule change will increase points? My guess is no- but I'll put this on the calendar to review once the dust settles.

-Chase

by Chase Turner 1/7/2023, 3:34 pm

chiz1180 wrote:My point was not about winning, my point was that people at the local level are not shooting the matches. I have put up $100 as price money for a service pistol match (did the same for the 22 EIC match), the match was advertised as such, and we only had two people from the 20 that showed up at the match willing to shoot it. I even brought extra guns and ammo and was willing to cover the entry fee. The match and badge mean nothing if no one is shooting it. Am I happy about the rule changes nope, in the same way that I disagree with rock river combo ribs being allowed last year. The way I look at it, if they do nothing the match and badge dies, which is extremely sad. In my personal opinion what really killed the Service pistol distinguished is people getting the badge then refusing to shoot it again. How many times have you seen ballguns for sale from someone who just got their badge?

I totally get what you are saying.

We've been kicking around ideas to potentially increase our turn out by, instead of having a typical short course at Regional or State, which the CMP still seems completely unable to codify as its own match with its own records (Jim- if you are reading this, please, please, please, please, please give this due consideration for rules in next cycle; I will continue to hound you like your own PBS telethon on this Smile

), doing the sanctioned service pistol match (22/CFor45/SP) in place of the traditional short course. My view is that it gets you prepped up for Sunday Service Pistol; and if you aren't shooting Friday (which would be mostly civilians, anyway), it's not like that match would matter too much for you anyway. The downside: since it is mostly service shooters on Friday anyway, it isn't clear that it would increase the draw for either coming and shooting on Friday, or even enticing folks to the main event.

I expect the reason the CMP has gone to this rule is to encourage more people to shoot SP. They know, just like we do, that there is only so many at the top 10% at Perry. This is also a function of the number of folks who actually show up. Full stop.

I enjoy shooting SP. I took out the CMP 1911 I received and shot it with 230 ball at the GA State Match. I can't believe it- but all of them were on paper, and it was too much fun. In talking with Clegg, I might be able to entice him to bring his Glock this season, and give it a work out (I believe he won NTI at Perry with it this past year, so there you go- it was bone stock!).

Wonder if the CMP also thought that classifications would also provoke people to shoot EIC matches; I know it worked with me; want to make it to High Master on my card, even though no classification is required in SP.

Anyway, I wish more people would shoot SP, too. You can be as purist as you want to be about it; earn it your own way. Just wish there was a better way to entice the shooter (and looking at you CMP and your $$$$ fees for EIC matches).

Best,
Chase

by Merick 1/7/2023, 5:02 pm

Chase Turner wrote:
I expect the reason the CMP has gone to this rule is to encourage more people to shoot SP.

I hope so. I know I would have (possibly) more than doubled my points won last season had there been just 3 more participants at the right place and time.

Q; What's worse than winning a match with 15 people?
A; First leather in a match with 15 people.

by Jack H 1/7/2023, 6:08 pm

"Anyway, I wish more people would shoot SP, too. You can be as purist as you want to be about it; earn it your own way. Just wish there was a better way to entice the shooter (and looking at you CMP and your $$$$ fees for EIC matches)."

Two hands and paper plates might do it.

by chiz1180 1/7/2023, 6:14 pm

For those who are distinguished here, how many still shoot service pistol matches? Especially the local ones

by RoyDean 1/7/2023, 6:34 pm

Generally, unless there is a time/travel constraint, I like to shoot almost every class I can. I sometimes also shoot the Ball Gun just for fun if there is a Police-L or similar match. Got the gun, got the ammo, why not shoot it?

In Oregon they typically run one or two (sometimes even three) NMC's after the completion of the 2700. Shoot EIC 22, EIC SP, DR or Harry Reeves as you wish. Never enough non-D shooters for a hard leg, but plenty of 6 pointers on offer.

To simplify my reloading life I have switched to 45ACP and Zero 185JHP bullets. I have a pet load that works for both wad gun short line and ball gun both lines.

by NYKenn 1/7/2023, 7:10 pm

Got distinguished in 1991 with hardball gun and ammo. It was a multiyear endeavor. I still shoot them but it does not help those trying t.o make points.
Many changes over time. Used to be free issued ammo and a free match. My personal club had 147 compete the last year this was so. Then fees began, then ammo was not provided, then more Guns where allowed, all with less shooters.
Used to be the Marksman and Sharpshooters shot to help a better shooter, with the expectation someone would do the same later on. Now, few shooters want to pay good money in which there is no benefit to them as they have no chance.
Add declining interest in Precision Pistol and the situation is even more depressing.
Wish I had an answer.

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