CMP 2023 rule changes

First topic message reminder :

I was just looking up something in the as-issued 1911 rules and noticed the CMP has new rulebooks for 2023. A couple of the changes seem significant to me. Thoughts?


https://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/PistolRuleChanges.pdf


Highlights:

• No more jacketed bullets required for EIC Service Pistol, or M&P/As-Issued for that matter. All CMP matches are going to use "any safe ammo".
  
• Civilians can be a "new shooter" in the NTT match for *two* years.
  
• No more list of approved service pistols. Any service type semi-auto, in caliber 9mm-.45 ACP, meeting the requirements (open sights, symmetrical grips, 4lb trigger, <5.5" bbl, etc) is OK.
  

chiz1180 wrote:For those who are distinguished here, how many still shoot service pistol matches? Especially the local ones

I do not. My last goal in SP was to get presidents 100 which I have done. Other than shooting additional P100 matches, I may never shoot a hardball match again.  I don’t really have an interest in doing it and don’t want/ need the medals they award for the matches.  I will bring my gun and ammo to a match in case someone needs a loaner so they can get enough shooters but me shooting won’t help anyone else.   
 
I do however only shoot iron sights for regular 2700 matches and have since 2009 when I started chasing distinguished.  I really like using irons and shoot them now as well as I shot dots in the past. I’ll keep doing that until my eye sight fails me to the point I can’t any longer.  

John

RoyDean wrote:Generally, unless there is a time/travel constraint, I like to shoot almost every class I can. I sometimes also shoot the Ball Gun just for fun if there is a Police-L or similar match. Got the gun, got the ammo, why not shoot it?

To simplify my reloading life I have switched to 45ACP and Zero 185JHP bullets. I have a pet load that works for both wad gun short line and ball gun both lines.

To which you bring up an excellent point regarding ammo, how easy is it to get jacketed projectiles vs lead? Let alone powder and primers. What many in this sport seem to miss is that if you are new to the sport you likely do not have an inventory of components to work from. Some people in the game have been stashing stuff away for the last 10, 20, 30 years or more. If you don't have it, this stuff is not inexpensive. Not to mention if some one starting out doesn't have a press, factory options are just as difficult to find.

The universal advice given here when someone asks for advice for a service pistol, is to get a range officer then send it off to a smith to re-barrel and trigger work, otherwise the pistol will "not be competitive". So in short the advice is go spend a grand on a gun send it to a smith then after some time (variable depending on smith) and additional money, you will have a gun that is you can compete with. Oh and you only can shoot 5 of the special matches a year (not saying you can't shoot them in a 2700, but you are then competing against different equipment). How is that productive in getting people to try to shoot service pistol? It clearly is not effective. Don't want to shoot a 1911, have everyone and their brother tell them they would be dumb to shoot something else.

In general I have found people who shot 2700s only won't shot EIC matches even if they are offered no entry fee, a gun to use, and ammo. So the old argument of providing a gun and ammo to use likely wouldn't be as effective today as it once may have been.

Clearly something needed to be done otherwise service pistol matches would die completely.

Hmmm. Chris. I kinda see the direction of your argument, but I don't think that Service Pistol is the point.

Precision Pistol, in all of its forms, is hard. That simple fact is the primary reason why the vast majority of pistol shooters who progress from plinking turn to the practical sections.

Secondly, all pistol competition is quite expensive, not as expensive as competitive clay shooting, but still not cheap. That can be mitigated by shooting 22lr only, but few folks stick to that good plan.

If an entry level shooter has good eyesight (especially if younger) then iron sights can be manageable and decent results in 2700 or EIC can be achieved. If that new shooter gets, and heeds, good advice, shoots 22 iron sights only it is possible to quickly progress to at least Expert level learning good fundamentals and match management along the way. Very few folks follow that path - probably only juniors at a well organized club or maybe because of knowledgeable parents/relatives.

For older entrants (often with less than great eyesight) red dots offer a huge advantage and obviously help to improve performance and bolster confidence. But then it is very hard to "go back" to iron sights. Been there, done that. Very hard work, but rewarding if time/patience/finance permits.

At the club in Phoenix there is a strong interest in International matches, all iron sights of course. Service Pistol becomes "a piece of cake" after training hard for International Center-fire! But they hardly ever shoot Service Pistol matches. Grrr.

The bottom line is that if a shooter is not already set up with decent guns and ammo, the entry barrier for Service Pistol is very high. I experimented with many different 9mm and 45ACP guns during my Service Pistol quest. All of the guns needed some tweaking, but, notably, an XDM for less than $1k was certainly good enough to go Distinguished, no doubt there are other relatively inexpensive guns that can do the job too, but then they are less than useful for CF/45 in a 2700. Decent factory 9mm ammo is now available. 45ACP currently almost demands reloads (therefore probably not easy for a new entrant - but the issue about bullet type is actually almost irrelevant). So, if a new entrant has already graduated beyond 22 only, a 45 with a red dot is surely the next step, reloading will be inevitable. Hence having an iron sight option on that gun is obvious. A decent entry level gun is gonna be above $1K after essential tweaking. As I said, entry barrier to Service Pistol is high.

The number of Precision Pistol shooters is, in any case, dwindling. The average age is climbing. Not a good combination!

I have rifle points w/hard leg (ORPA match at Perry). I don't travel and "chase" any longer for various reasons, but do enjoy the NMs and the trip (and cost) is worth it to me, as I live about 2-1/2 hrs away. The feeling of scoring cases of primers and jugs of powder, checking out beautiful rifles and pistols, getting putty shoved into your ears, and sipping at the Bait House in PC, are just too much fun. I have opinions on the "distinguished" concept; and there are a lot of similar comments between rifle and pistol. It is a program and concept based on "tradition and history" amidst a changing shooting environment, rifle and pistol, which exposes it to the risk of decreasing interest and attendance, and that is certainly happening. Action pistol and PRS (rifle) were not around way back when, but if they were, would the distinguished program even be around any longer? Compare this to simpler "stratification" (or classification) methods (e.g., target score, golf handicap, timing, etc.)...they seem to evolve easier and survive. So is that what precision pistol and rifle need to focus on moving forwards, always geared towards affecting fun, ease of attendance, time, and cost? Tradition and history despises adaptation and change; both sides see the other as dysfunctional. Which one wins in the long run?  

Equipment wise, from the rifle perspective, a used $1000 scoped HBAR, a used coat, and purchased ammo is capable of winning the P100 and NTI via the best shooter that day. 99% of the rifles on the line at a service rifle match are, for all practical purposes, identical (.223, MV/recoil, scope power, etc.). Other than Games matches, almost everyone shoots the scoped AR platform at Perry, with a decent 20" barrel and trigger: P100, NTI, NTIT, Hearst Doubles, MM, 2400 Cup, Team Matches, and mid-range. That's a lot of shooting with one gun and one type of ammo. That saves money and reduces complexity. I think that has certainly helped rifle attendance, which (e.g., at Perry) is many times greater than pistol, even in only the 8 events noted above. 

I'm relatively new to the BE pistol, but really enjoy it. The myriad of semi-auto pistols, their mechanisms, and calibers adds complexity to the sport. I enjoy that (that is just me) but is it smart from a competition standpoint? They cycle and recoil differently. They have different triggers, grips, and weights. Some ammo you buy, some you must reload. But if you want to affect recoil, and maintain a 3 MOA group at 50 yards, and dislike the mushy factory pistol triggers, you have to spend more money and ship it somewhere. All of this is complexity, challenging longevity and initial attractiveness.  

With the HBAR service rifle, no one cares about recoil. Everyone uses one caliber. A 4X scope shoots alongside iron sights. I can buy a used Geissele AR NM trigger for about $100, install and adjust it, with no experience, in about 20 minutes. No gunsmith required. Your HBAR is done until you re-barrel it 3000 rounds later. But rifle is not immune to the challenges of competition. PRS is growing and if you're a good SR shooter, you can win some big prizes and payouts, enough to cover costs. Attractive? Yes. 

I commend the CMP for trying to survive and grow, but the only way forward is to rely less and less on history and tradition, unless these provide specific benefits. They should also listen more to new shooters, and those who give these sports a try, but don't continue.

Greetings,

Interesting...

My friend Hoover has fired many EIC matches locally using a box stock Beretta M92 with, I think, Federal American Eagle 124 grain ammo. Always scored above 270 and won quite a few matches.

Bear in mind that the above pistol does not have adjustable sights. Nor did it have a fancy custom barrel. Box stock. If fact, I recall it was a Police surplus pistol.

It would appear that skill is a major factor in shooting.

Cheers,

Dave

fc60 wrote:Greetings,

Interesting...

My friend Hoover has fired many EIC matches locally using a box stock Beretta M92 with, I think, Federal American Eagle 124 grain ammo. Always scored above 270 and won quite a few matches.

Bear in mind that the above pistol does not have adjustable sights. Nor did it have a fancy custom barrel. Box stock. If fact, I recall it was a Police surplus pistol.

It would appear that skill is a major factor in shooting.

Cheers,

Dave

Absolutely do not disagree that skill is the primary factor of achieving high scores, my point was that people come here for equipment advise and are inedited with you need to buy a particular 1911 and then immediately replace parts before participating in the discipline. How many of the "what guy should I buy starting out" threads recommend a factory stock gun to start?

I bet I'm a rarity, but I was preparing to find a lead load for my service pistol to continue shooting irons. This change means I only have to work up one load for sure instead of one jacketed load and then seeing if any lead loads topped it. 

FWIW, I need 2 points to finish my badge.

fc60 wrote: box stock Beretta M92 with, I think, Federal American Eagle 124 grain ammo. Always scored above 270 

Mine wouldn't shoot a cut score if I put it in a ransom rest. I tried it.

The fun thing about pistol leg matches is that they’re only 30 shots.

Most non-Distinguished shooters I’ve seen don’t pull their head out of their ass until about halfway through the leg match, if ever. Different ammo allowances won’t help with that. 

Brian Zins teaches, “Shoot an X on the first shot.” Do that, and it won’t matter whether you’re shooting lead or jacketed.

While the new rules don’t feel, to me, to honor and follow the traditions many associate with the badge.  I am a new pistol shooter.  I am learning to shoot left handed as I lost my right in the military.  And, I just ordered as many nosler 185gn JHP as I could find and afford. I will continue to shoot them. My quest for my Distinguished Pistol Shot Badge will be the same as my Rifle. To learn, adapt, adjust and to shoot as good as I possibly can. To earn the badge for me. For my Rifle There were whispers that my prosthetic was “artificial support”.  But I pushed through and am very proud of my badge.  Pistol, I only NEED one hand, so I’m good there! Will my pistol badge be under the same conditions as my Grandfathers was in 1958?  I wish, but that’s not the case.
 It’s so much harder to find Service Pistol matches than it was with rifle, so maybe a freshening of the rules will help that. But Steve Huff at Accuracy X built me a SOLID shooter and I intend to use the components I have on hand and do the best I possibly can.  I think my Grandfather would be just as proud of my earning a “new” badge as he was of his. I look at it like “Guess I’ll need to train and hold a little harder.” I have a stellar gun that could probably win the P100 or NTI with jhp Ammo. Now the shooter, well, that is another story…
Just my thoughts.
-Single_Handed
R. Evans

No matter what the rules are, you still need to finish in the top 10% of non distinguished. The rules are what they are and everyone has to play by them. Coming over from rifle I can tell you when we went to 4x scopes the top dogs were still the top dogs. I earned 28 of my rifle points iron sights last 2 with scope. I do not think new distinguished rifle shooters are any less than me. Times change and sports evolve, but you either accept it or get left behind. In the end you still need to shoot the score.

The rules are the rules…. I was “extinguished” in the mid 1980s with rifle under the rules of the day.  Regardless of new equipment and conditions, becoming a Distiguished Rifleman (or pistol) is the same process.  You have to be consistently good over multiple events.  There really is no “easy legs”.  I do however display one of these to put things in perspective.  

I thought Krag's & Springfield's were the old fashioned way.....LOL

Wes, I’m old…not ancient!

Wobbley wrote:Wes, I’m old…not ancient!

Touché.........LOL

chiz1180 wrote:

Jon Eulette wrote:Someone just pointed out to me that .38 spl will now be legal. Gonna see S&W 52’s and 1911 .38’s on the line.
We should remove the word “service” from the “service” pistol match. 
Should be called “Run What Ya Brung” Match.
I completely understand wanting to draw more competitors, but we should’ve made a NEW Match for that. Service Pistol is honestly in the toilet now. 
What’s next? Larger scoring rings? Shot at 7 & 15 yds? Yeah I’m being a smart ass now but the line has really been crossed. Maybe call it the “Woke” Match?
Yeah I’m not happy.

Ok when is the last time you shot a service pistol match? Better yet, when is the last time you shot a service pistol at Perry? Bottom line people both non Distinguished and Distinguished don't shoot service pistol matches, with the exception of at Perry. The reason it has got to this point is people got distinguished then never touched their ball gun again. So Jon if this is so much easier, show up to Nationals with your lead loads and win the P100 or NTI (or both), it would be nice to see you on the stage.

AH? Did I miss a contractual obligation with the CMP when I got my badge over 20 years ago?

It got to this point because of Jon? I would love to hear the logic behind your rant.

robert84010 wrote:

chiz1180 wrote:

Jon Eulette wrote:Someone just pointed out to me that .38 spl will now be legal. Gonna see S&W 52’s and 1911 .38’s on the line.
We should remove the word “service” from the “service” pistol match. 
Should be called “Run What Ya Brung” Match.
I completely understand wanting to draw more competitors, but we should’ve made a NEW Match for that. Service Pistol is honestly in the toilet now. 
What’s next? Larger scoring rings? Shot at 7 & 15 yds? Yeah I’m being a smart ass now but the line has really been crossed. Maybe call it the “Woke” Match?
Yeah I’m not happy.

Ok when is the last time you shot a service pistol match? Better yet, when is the last time you shot a service pistol at Perry? Bottom line people both non Distinguished and Distinguished don't shoot service pistol matches, with the exception of at Perry. The reason it has got to this point is people got distinguished then never touched their ball gun again. So Jon if this is so much easier, show up to Nationals with your lead loads and win the P100 or NTI (or both), it would be nice to see you on the stage.

AH? Did I miss a contractual obligation with the CMP when I got my badge over 20 years ago?

It got to this point because of Jon? I would love to hear the logic behind your rant.

New shooters follow the example of more experienced ones. In general distinguished shooters dot not care enough about the match to continue shooting it after getting their badge, yet they will complain about every rule change regarding the match that is made to keep it from dying. If you don’t participate in the matches why should you complain about the changes?

Greetings,

Long ago when you were mandated to shoot commercial/military 230 grain Ball ammo at 830+ FPS it was a lot of work.

Myself and several others I know bought 230 grain FMJRN bullets and loaded them to "HardBall" specs. We then shot them in practice and every match we attended.

Shooting "HardBall" with iron sights against all the WadCutter guns with either full ribs or "lights" pretty much kept you in second place and below.

Once I earned my badge in 1988, I sold all my 230 grain bullets. I have shot very few "Leg" matches since.

Do recall that a Distinguished shooter may only win the match and receive a medal. Their participation does not influence the number of non-Distinguished competitors regarding points awarded.

Even back in the old days, many chose not to shoot the "Leg" match as it was too hard. Non participation is not a new thing.

One observation I have about the recent "Leg" Matches is the scores are generally lower than when we were shooting real Hard Ball.

Even with the new rules allowing WadCutter guns and ammo I do not expect the scores to climb.

Also, going Distinguished as a Civilian in the "old days" was a feather in your cap. We had a lot of Military shooters back then and they got all the practice ammo they could shoot. Not to mention the GunSmiths available to maintain their equipment.

Cheers,

Dave

Grand Geezer

chiz1180 wrote:

robert84010 wrote:

chiz1180 wrote:

Jon Eulette wrote:Someone just pointed out to me that .38 spl will now be legal. Gonna see S&W 52’s and 1911 .38’s on the line.
We should remove the word “service” from the “service” pistol match. 
Should be called “Run What Ya Brung” Match.
I completely understand wanting to draw more competitors, but we should’ve made a NEW Match for that. Service Pistol is honestly in the toilet now. 
What’s next? Larger scoring rings? Shot at 7 & 15 yds? Yeah I’m being a smart ass now but the line has really been crossed. Maybe call it the “Woke” Match?
Yeah I’m not happy.

Ok when is the last time you shot a service pistol match? Better yet, when is the last time you shot a service pistol at Perry? Bottom line people both non Distinguished and Distinguished don't shoot service pistol matches, with the exception of at Perry. The reason it has got to this point is people got distinguished then never touched their ball gun again. So Jon if this is so much easier, show up to Nationals with your lead loads and win the P100 or NTI (or both), it would be nice to see you on the stage.

AH? Did I miss a contractual obligation with the CMP when I got my badge over 20 years ago?

It got to this point because of Jon? I would love to hear the logic behind your rant.

New shooters follow the example of more experienced ones. In general distinguished shooters dot not care enough about the match to continue shooting it after getting their badge, yet they will complain about every rule change regarding the match that is made to keep it from dying. If you don’t participate in the matches why should you complain about the changes?

You don't know what the hell you're talking about. He shoots the matches when he wants to. He is allowed to have an opinion about rule changes because he is part of the history of service pistol. He shot for the Army team and then the National Team.  How about you?
You are right new shooters should follow experienced shooters but on this website they don't they read posts from non distinguished marksman and that is why they are told to do the wrong things. That is why there are no new shooters at matches not because Jon doesn't fly 2000 miles to Perry for the umpteenth time. He's been there. I've been there several times since I went out. The sport does not revolve around old shooters, it revolves around new shooters wanting to achieve what old shooters did and be part of the old history of the sport. Not just use the newest fancy gadget.
When I started I was told to buy a ballgun, a High Standard, a Dillon 550 and not shoot anything else until after I was distinguished. What were you told?

fc60 wrote:Even with the new rules allowing WadCutter guns and ammo I do not expect the scores to climb.

Dave...curious (from lack of experience)...how can a wadcutter gun shoot in a service match? I see how the typical WC ammo is now legal.

It needs iron sights and a 4 pound trigger. 

If it has a scope rail, just switch it to a combo rail.

Use two sear springs. One set for 3.5 and the other set for 4 pounds and just swap them when needed.

DA/SA wrote:It needs iron sights and a 4 pound trigger. 

If it has a scope rail, just switch it to a combo rail.

Use two sear springs. One set for 3.5 and the other set for 4 pounds and just swap them when needed.

Keep the new 42 oz weight limit in mind. A 40 oz 1911 plus a full length guide rod and a combo sight rail might be cutting it close.

EIC and Service Pistol Flashbacks!  As a military shooter I remember shooting 230 ball exclusively for a few years.   The big driver was that the Service Pistol Team Match is a big thing at the Service championships and required two new shooters every year.  Camp Perry only required one.   The rule for my immediate team was to shoot a 2500 aggregate score before being issued wadcutter.   I remember breaking 2600 while still holding an expert card.

Oh no... Stock Rock River with a combo rail... Good thing Jon's building me a ballgun. 

Hey, Mister, get in line!