CMP 2023 rule changes

First topic message reminder :

I was just looking up something in the as-issued 1911 rules and noticed the CMP has new rulebooks for 2023. A couple of the changes seem significant to me. Thoughts?


https://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/PistolRuleChanges.pdf


Highlights:

• No more jacketed bullets required for EIC Service Pistol, or M&P/As-Issued for that matter. All CMP matches are going to use "any safe ammo".
  
• Civilians can be a "new shooter" in the NTT match for *two* years.
  
• No more list of approved service pistols. Any service type semi-auto, in caliber 9mm-.45 ACP, meeting the requirements (open sights, symmetrical grips, 4lb trigger, <5.5" bbl, etc) is OK.
  

Merick wrote:Keep the new 42 oz weight limit in mind. A 40 oz 1911 plus a full length guide rod and a combo sight rail might be cutting it close.

Question - does the weight limit include a loaded magazine? The section 4.1.1 text says "Overall", but does not define the term:

>> Overall Weight. The weight of the pistol may not exceed 42 ounces.

More rule changes coming?

-TT- wrote:Question - does the weight limit include a loaded magazine? The section 4.1.1 text says "Overall", but does not define the term:

>> Overall Weight. The weight of the pistol may not exceed 42 ounces.

No way it could. A loaded magazine would be well over the limit. But it is not outside the realm of possibility for the CMP to require an unloaded magazine. They do that in the Rimfire Sporter (rifle) 7.5# weight limit.

FYI Rule 7.3.2 in the CMP Games matches has been changed to align with the change in Rule 4.4 Ammunition. Any safe ammunition now also applies to the "As Issued" gun category too.  There was no change to the definition of an As Issued firearm.

So, thinking about this a bit more... it seems to me that the Smith and Wesson model 52 is now legal for service pistol, which is hilarious. Derived from the model 39, which itself was designed for the US Army Service pistol trials in 1954.

"The pistol must be a semi-automatic pistol. The pistol
design should be of a type that is suitable for use in a general duty scenario (i.e., military, law enforcement, etc.)."

I suppose that even though the base design was the 39, you could argue that the 52 was specifically developed for target sshooting. But that's not really what the rule says.

Thoughts?

Dave

Why would one spend the effort to make a model 52’s trigger 4lbs? Also 38spl clearly has all the centerfire records…

As was done in the (decades) past, the rule seems deliberately vague so as to allow Match Directors some leeway to promote the sport.

As long as the rule is applied at each match consistently across the competitors, everyone has the same advantages ... and disadvantages.

After all is said and done, the 1911 in 45acp will still rule the roost, just due to the 100 years of competitive development. About 50 years more than any other competitive semiauto.

NukeMMC wrote:After all is said and done, the 1911 in 45acp trigger control will still rule the roost

FTFY

Dcforman wrote:.. Smith and Wesson model 52 ..

Thoughts?

Dave

I don't like it but if I was on a rules jury I don't see anything that would throw it out. That said; the total number of people that have access to a 38 midrange and have not legged out is probably less than 5, and they would have negligible material advantage over the now endless list of other legal guns, and none against someone who practiced like they should have.

I do think the weight rule will DQ some of the cz 75 clones I have seen at matches in the past.

On the other hand it may be easier to lure leg meat to matches with a loaner P-08 or C-96, which is now possible.

NYKenn wrote:Got distinguished in 1991 with hardball gun and ammo. It was a multiyear endeavor. I still shoot them but it does not help those trying t.o make points.
Many changes over time. Used to be free issued ammo and a free match. My personal club had 147 compete the last year this was so. Then fees began, then ammo was not provided, then more Guns where allowed, all with less shooters. 
Used to be the Marksman and Sharpshooters shot to help a better shooter, with the expectation someone would do the same later on. Now, few shooters want to pay good money in which there is no benefit to them as they have no chance.
Add declining interest in Precision Pistol and the situation is even more depressing. 
Wish I had an answer.

I know you aren't the one making this argument, but I don't think this rule change is what is going to kill (or likely bring in) a lot of new shooters. There are drastically less and less people shooting formal shooting competitions. Is this all an aversity to not wanting to shoot "hard things?" Maybe. I know most people here are very bullseye oriented but many other older competitive shooting disciplines with handgun are either losing a lot of steam, are on life support, or are on the way out. PPC, NRA Action Pistol / Bianchi Cup, Silhouette, and even many divisions within IDPA, USPSA, and Steel Challenge have all taken large hits. The larger problem isn't that people are leaving to go to another game - they aren't even playing in any of said games.

As far as the rule change, I welcome it. I don't think it's going to make a huge difference for 95% of the precision pistol shooting population. The community needs to make a choice on if it would rather make minor concessions or if they would rather have the sport completely die with the "benefit" of the perceived honor/prestige of what it used to be.

Jim posted this on the FB page. 
My thoughts…??? Stop bitching and start shooters.

I heard there was some talk about a few of the 2023 CMP rule changes. Specifically “any safe ammo” being allowed and “no list of allowed firearms”. 
I’d like to make a couple of clarifications. A 1911 meets the firearm criteria, as does one chambered in the magical .38SPL cartridge. 
However while a S&W Mod 52 does meet the caliber requirements, the firearm itself does not. 
Remember the firearms used still have to be a “general issue” weapon to military or LEO. The Mod 52 was never either one of these. 

Also if it’s believed that the .38SPL or lead bullets in general will dominate the National Trophy matches, I think that caliber or projectile would be holding all the CF records in the 2700.

This is not a post to fling a finger at anyone or cause tempers to flare, it’s simply a source of information and conversation. 

I look forward to seeing you all out on the firing line!

Dcforman wrote:So, thinking about this a bit more... it seems to me that the Smith and Wesson model 52 is now legal for service pistol, which is hilarious. Derived from the model 39, which itself was designed for the US Army Service pistol trials in 1954.

"The pistol must be a semi-automatic pistol. The pistol
design should be of a type that is suitable for use in a general duty scenario (i.e., military, law enforcement, etc.)."

I suppose that even though the base design was the 39, you could argue that the 52 was specifically developed for target sshooting. But that's not really what the rule says.

Thoughts?

Dave

Sorry for the late post.

Hilarious indeed!  What most people don't know is that the 52 was issued to the security force of Harrah's Casinos.  I know the gunsmith who used to work on them.  He has worked on mine as well.  Some will disagree that this would qualify it as a service pistol.  But that little "etc." in the rules leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

Would I use a 52 for service pistol?  Probably not.  
1.  It is not a forgiving gun.  Given my abilities, I'd be much better off with a 1911 in any caliber.
2.  It would be a tough job to get a 52 to make a 4# trigger pull.  I wouldn't even try that.  It was never designed for that.
3.  A 1911 in 38 or 38 super comp makes more sense.
4.  As stated earlier - "At the end of the day, it's trigger control that wins."

NRA, or CMP precision pistol rules have never classified "security guards (forces)" as LEO or Military that I am aware of.

Not to be confused with NRA Police Combat which does allow "security guard, agencies, forces" to compete.

james r chapman wrote:NRA, or CMP precision pistol rules have never classified "security guards (forces)" as LEO or Military that I am aware of.

Not to be confused with NRA Police Combat which does allow "security guard, agencies, forces" to compete.

NRA PPC rule 

"2. Persons employed as Industrial Police by private industry on a part-time basis, or where such employment is not the sole occupation of such person, may not compete in NRA Police Pistol Combat tournaments." 

I think "Industrial Police" in private industry is a bit more than security guard or security agency. I believe this rule was written to cover the Railroad Police or similar. I recall Conrail and Southern Railroad Police used to compete. Perhaps mistaken.

Hanford Patrol (Hanford, WA. nuclear plant security) were some of the best PPC shooters back in the 90's. They were full time and allowed to compete.

Wes Lorenz wrote:Hanford Patrol (Hanford, WA. nuclear plant security) were some of the best PPC shooters back in the 90's. They were full time and allowed to compete.

Roger that. My point was, if I am correct, that the typical rent a cop is not eligible in NRA PPC. The Nuclear Power plant security surely meet that Industrial category.

If there is a Model 52 out there with a 4lb trigger, I would be shocked.

Many .38MR 1911s can't go 30 rounds without a malfunction. 

This problem solves itself.

I will be interested to see what the military teams show up to Perry with.

The last 2 years, I've struggled to get jacketed bullets. This change helps me. Now I will have 1 recipe and 1 reloader setup.

More practice and more training in the same setup as EIC P100

The .38 1911 work very good when built right and/or not worn out

I have a Clarke 38SP 1911 and once you get the trigger right (thanks KC) and learn how to make the damn ammunition for it (courtesy of Jon and his unending patience) and don't put a red dot on it then with 2.5g WST it's awesome. An absolute joy to shoot. On the short line. Apply a bore snake after slow fire and you're good.
On the long line - you better have a stock of chickens to sacrifice. I know it *can* be done - I've seen it. If you have perfect follow-through and great trigger control then it's wonderful. Of course - if you have those you may as well shoot the 45. 
It is, however, a great learning tool - if you can shoot that well you should be great with the 45.

straybrit wrote:If you have perfect follow-through and great trigger control then it's wonderful. Of course - if you have those you may as well shoot the 45....if you can shoot that well you should be great with the 45.

This pretty much sums it up. I *think* I'm gonna shoot my regular ball gun this year until I get my last leg, then I might shoot my 38 spec 1911 after that. 45 to get my badge, then 38 for fun, and just because I can.

Dave

Getting the trigger pull and follow through required for .38MR  is challenging enough with a 2.5lb trigger.

Repeating that with a 4lb trigger will be quite a feat.

I'm going to stick with the .45

Allgoodhits wrote:

james r chapman wrote:NRA, or CMP precision pistol rules have never classified "security guards (forces)" as LEO or Military that I am aware of.

Not to be confused with NRA Police Combat which does allow "security guard, agencies, forces" to compete.

NRA PPC rule 

"2. Persons employed as Industrial Police by private industry on a part-time basis, or where such employment is not the sole occupation of such person, may not compete in NRA Police Pistol Combat tournaments." 

I think "Industrial Police" in private industry is a bit more than security guard or security agency. I believe this rule was written to cover the Railroad Police or similar. I recall Conrail and Southern Railroad Police used to compete. Perhaps mistaken.

5. Industrial: This category includes all individuals and teams employed by regularly organized security agencies, railway or industrial police departments, bank guards and armored truck and express company guards

Generally any armed security is covered.

Founder wrote:Getting the trigger pull and follow through required for .38MR  is challenging enough with a 2.5lb trigger.

Repeating that with a 4lb trigger will be quite a feat.

I'm going to stick with the .45

Rob, that MR is 5x harder to shoot well than a 1911 with lug to slide lock up. Get a real 1911 and it’s not so hard
Jon

I hadn't tried a .38MR until I was at my peak skill level, and I still don't own one.

I'm just trying to make a point for people who might assume that they are lightning in a bottle that they should probably stick with their existing gear.

Founder wrote:I hadn't tried a .38MR until I was at my peak skill level, and I still don't own one.

I'm just trying to make a point for people who might assume that they are lightning in a bottle that they should probably stick with their existing gear.

I must be one of them, I never hit the same place twice.