Distinguished Revolver = any safe ammo

A question came up from a competitor about the wording of the rule on ammo for the DR matches and the answer I received from the NRA is a little more open than in the past.   Basically the only restrictions are on the revolver with any safe ammo being allowed for the DR matches.   Just want to be sure everyone is aware.  
 
Last year I was told there were several such parts of the rule book they needed to clean up with a complete rewrite and edit but now they have decided to leave this part alone.  



The email from NRA and my question to them are below:

 
Clark
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Martin, Beth [mailto:BMartin@nrahq.org]
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 9:42 AM
To: 'Clark2245'
Cc: Hughes, Thomas; Orsinger, Damien
Subject: RE: Tournament Links
 
Hello, Mr. Hardesty,
 
The real limitation is on the revolver itself.  I have conferred with my co-worker and our director to clarify the rule.  The revolver must be capable of firing those specific types of ammo.  So the revolvers used must be a .357 Magnum or a .38 Special.  Other safe ammunition for those weapons is allowable.  I hope that answers your question. 
 
Respectfully,
 
Elizabeth Martin
NRA Pistol Programs Specialist
Competitive Shooting Division
11250 Waples Mill Rd.  |  Fairfax, VA  22030
703-267-1452  | bmartin@nrahq.org



 
From: Clark2245
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2014 10:23 PM
To: Martin, Beth
Subject: RE: Tournament Links
 
A question has come up regarding the Distinguished Revolver program and I would appreciate clarification on the intent of the rule since the wording is a little unclear.
 
Rule 3.1.4 states:  “The revolver must be capable of chambering and firing a 158-grain round nose or Semi-Wad­cutter .38 Special cartridge.”   However at no point in the rules is it stated that this is the ammo that must be used.   Is there any limitation on the ammo used, as the 158 grain bullets were previously required, or is any safe ammo now allowed?
 
Just had a competitor ask and I didn’t have a definitive answer for him.   Your help will be appreciated.   Thanks.
 
Clark Hardesty

148 HBWC ok now????

In 357 cases even????

Good. 

I hope.


I think.

110 gr XTP even better. But, but, I think were going to see a retraction of that letter. 3.1.4 says any safe ammo but the rules that they print and the match bulletin sent to the people actually running the match are different. It spells it out pretty clearly there that it has to be 158gr lead rn or swc. There was an earlier thread that had the link to that site.

Len   ( I vote for 110gr xtp )


I think the "other safe ammo" was put in so we could shoot are own re-loads

I did email Mr Picolo (sp?) years back, and a ref type also chimed in, both said that you will use the 38spcl 158 LRN or SWC.  Why the lack of rules clarity has continued is a mystery.

Wow....I can make 148gr LSWCs fly MUCH better than LRNs....
After 3 years of asking the NRA about the missing section of the rulebook we finally get a new ruling...better late than never.


The reason there were match directors specifying the 158gr ammo was because previously the NRA said that the missing rulebook sections were an inadvertent omission from the rulebook.  This new ruling is divergent from the previous NRA position.

Ms. Martin's response was as clear as mud. 
"The revolver must be capable of firing those specific types of ammo." 
The below sentance contradicts her above sentance.
"Other safe ammunition for those weapons is allowable."

22shtur wrote:Ms. Martin's response was as clear as mud. 
"The revolver must be capable of firing those specific types of ammo." 
The below sentance contradicts her above sentance.
"Other safe ammunition for those weapons is allowable."

I do not see a conflict.  Just because the revolver must be capable of shooting a specific round, does not preclude the use of another, i.e. the cylinder must be able to accept SWC or round nose, while you may use full wadcutters.  This would say that a cylinder that can only accept full wadcutters would not be allowed.

Given the above listed criteria why did Ms. Martins eliminate the .357 Remington Maximum ? Another fine revolver capable of handling 38 special.

Wow. Let's show up with our 148's and the letter and see what they say!

For those not on the email list, the issue has has been fairly clearly resolved.   Any safe ammo is allowed for the DR.  I received the following email from Mr Dennis Willing, the Director of Competitive Shooting for the NRA.   In the past he has been chairman of the rules committee and chairman of the protest committee for bullseye so he is quite knowledgeable on the issue.   Note:  Brian Zins said the rules committee is meeting in November and will be discussing this item.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Clark,
 
Neil Kravitz sent me an email advising that he believes that the information provided to you regarding DR ammo was incorrect. 
 
According to current wording, the information given to you is correct, that any safe ammo can be used.  However, you must use a revolver that is CAPABLE of chambering and firing a 158gr round, not that you have to use that round.  Beth Martin personally contacted me for clarification before sending the information out to you.
 
I was on the Pistol Committee when this was done and, due to a severe component shortage and an apparent supply of 130gr military ball ammo, it was decided to get out of the bullet weight business.  So unless the committee changes the wording, any safe ammo can be used.
 
Denny
 
Dennis L. Willing
Director, NRA
Competitive Shooting Division
 
11250 Waples Mill Road
Fairfax, VA 22030
Office 703-267-1460
Cell 571-299-9429
Fax      703-267-3941"

Now THAT certainly changes the playing field!

james r chapman wrote:Now THAT certainly changes the playing field!

Not that much.   As long as the rules are the same for everyone, which they are, the same competitors are likely to finish at the top of the list.   Will the average score be a little higher?   Probably yes.  But if I cannot out shoot Zins or Henderson now, and I have demonstrated I cannot, then everyone changing to more accurate ammo is not going to change that equation.

All that after I finally found 158gr LRNs that shot good out of my 14...

Time to get the machine rest out again......

clark2245 wrote:

james r chapman wrote:Now THAT certainly changes the playing field!

Not that much.   As long as the rules are the same for everyone, which they are, the same competitors are likely to finish at the top of the list.   Will the average score be a little higher?   Probably yes.  But if I cannot out shoot Zins or Henderson now, and I have demonstrated I cannot, then everyone changing to more accurate ammo is not going to change that equation.

Getting a 158 to shoot competitively is a world away from 148 wadcutters...

james r chapman wrote:Getting a 158 to shoot competitively is a world away from 148 wadcutters...

You got that right....

There WILL be some shakeups in the playing field for DR legs until the load development starts showing us what IS the best load.  Some people are going to end up with good loads right away, and they WILL have an advantage.  It will take some time for the playing field to level itself out.

I'm going to have to re-read my Pistol Shooters Treasury--I thought there were some good .38 loads in there...

What will really shake things up is if they determine that DR will allow revolvers of any caliber.

Well that is just great.
Just picked up a box of American Eagle 158gr LRN .38's last week just to shoot the DR match here during the state championships next week end.

Oh, well, nothing but something to shoot cause I already have my DR badge.
Not enough time to work a load in 148gr out of my revolver.
Could use my M52-1 loads.
Gives me something else to do this year.

Clarence

Rob,
 tiny teeny bit off subject but when your testing new DR loads be sure to try 5.7 gr BE behind a 110 gr xtp. That load will hold x-ring at 50 yds in both my 14 and model 27. Tested off bag with Leupold 4x.

Len

Rob, find the loads from the top PPC guys, they've been using the most accurate .38 special loads for a long time.....

just an example....

I can't imagine that this "any ammo" rule will make that much much of a difference, nor will there be any significant change in the playing field.  The rising accuracy tide will raise all boats.  There are many accuracy loads out there for the 38 SPL.  I have used several in my 14-4: all shoot a 95% confidence interval of 3", including Rem 158 RN's.  My 95% confidence interval (ammo + hold) is about 12" at 50 yds.  Where should I best spend my time, load development or training?

It might be interesting to compare Reeve's scores v. DR at Perry - comparison should be fairly valid, since they are shot under similar conditions each year - I doubt there is much of a difference, given even the any sight/bullet/caliber provisions for Reeves.

Good shooting,
Gregg

james r chapman wrote:Rob, find the loads from the top PPC guys, they've been using the most accurate .38 special loads for a long time.....

just an example....

Just a curiosity question because I don't shoot PPC. Do these PPC guys use stock pistols like S&W 14's or any other stock guns with 1-18 twist barrels? I thought that they used faster twist aftermarket  barrels but I'm not 100% sure. I know the accuracy difference between say a Colt with a 1-14" twist is supposedly better than the S&W 1-18" twist when using 148 grain HBWC and I believe that Jerry Keefer stated this was true also. If this is true then using a lighter bullet might make sense with the S&W guns if it's legal to shoot them in DR competition.


Virgil

Virgil, that is true. 1-10 and 1-12 twist, heavy barrels. As I recall, the gun of choice used to be the Python with the 1-14 tight barrels.

I've never had a problem getting the 148gr hbwc's to shoot tight groups with the stock S&W barrel though.

The point is the 148 gr wc's are an established load for many decades of competition.

james r chapman,

I like your 148gr 25 yard target--I have had no problem making 158gr 25 yard loads that are that accurate for my model 14-- all of my good 158gr 25 yard loads are knuckleballs somewhere before they make it to the 50 yard line.

I do have a good 148gr HBWC load for my gun...around 2.5" so I'm good for now.  I will try some of those 110gr XTPs....

110 xp sounds interesting...

And all this so many years after I sorta standardized on the Hornady 125-gr XTP in .357 and some .38 loads...

Anyone know how well those 125 XTPs I have on hand do at 50 yards in a good .38 Special load???

The 125 gr work great. I can sling the 110s down a little faster with a lighter load so I prefer them. If I have trouble finding the 110s I use the 125s. I took the 14-6 out and played with it today after I got the new grips. The shots not in the 10 were on call so just me wobbling not an ammo problem. This was only 25 yds but this load doesn't start flying off to never never land at least until it passes 50 yds.


Len