Substitute for WW 452AA

You old heads that loaded 452AA in your paper punchers in the 80s...  You make note of what was the best replacement when it went away?  A quick google says WST.    I'm planning to try to come as close as I can to KCs old heavy cast bullet 38 Super load.

I think you found it.

although, can you describe the "old heavy cast bullet .38 load"? are you saying 158 grain? or something for a .38/44 frame.

Guess it could have been a 180-200 grain bullet intended for the likes of a 357 maximum couldn't it!   KC's load was for a 150 grain bullet running slow like a 38 Wadcutter gun. I've got a Magnus Bullet Company 147 grain bullet to work with.

Still using it 

I'm still using it also.
WST was it's replacement, they are close but not the same.

I also still use 452AA but I have a very limited supply and only use it for Nosler JHP's. When I first started shooting Bullseye the guy I bought my first 1911 wad gun from was using it but he was no longer shooting matches and he sold me 20lbs. I have about 1/2lb left. I tried WST but never got the same results as with the 452AA. I would sure like to know why Winchester discontinued it. I have several good friends that shoot Trap and skeet that feel the same. Anybody want to sell some?

I was a 452AA user and did extensive testing with WST when it came out. Sold off my remaining 452AA and have used WST since. Have tried many powders the past 20 years and always end up going back to WST.
Tom Ginovsky

Using up my last 1/2 pound also, when it's gone will start using up the 4 pounds of WW 473AA I still have.

When I use up my 230P I'm going to load up the last of my HiVel#2.

Tom,
       May I ask what the make up of your WST Loads. I do have some (not much) WST powder and would like to try it again.
Randy Earnest

Randy,
 I use only Winchester LP primers, my own hand cast H&G 68 bullets sized .452 and Federal brass. 3.8 grains WST for 50 ft and 25 yd, 4.2 grains for 50 yds.   For 50 yards  I switched to the Nosler 185 HP, 5.0 grains WST, OAL of 1.24 inch always loaded on once fired Federal brass. I have 4 wad guns and this load shoots well in all of them at 50 yards. I also own a Ransom rest so there is no question on the results. In the early 1990s the Winchester Factory rep was at Camp Perry and I asked him how much hotter the Winchester large pistol primer was then the other makes since they only make the one instead of regular LP and magnum LP. His answer was Winchester LP primer is 8% hotter then the other standard LP primers.
Tom Ginovsky

Tom,
     Thanks for the information.  look like good loads, close to what I tried before but with different components. I was using Winchester brass, Federal Primers and Star 200gr swaged bullets. I'll let you know how my test go, I also have a Ransom Rest but I didn't when I tried WST before.

Randy

Randy Earnest wrote:I also still use 452AA but I have a very limited supply and only use it for Nosler JHP's.

What charge are you using for the Noslers? I looked back at some old test results that I did with 4.3 grains, and that was running about 730fps, which I think is too slow. That group was about 2.5". I am thinking maybe 4.5-4.8?

John,
       I use 4.3 452AA @ OAL of 1.200" with the Nosler 185 JHP.It always shot around 2" from my Ransom Rest at 50 yds. I'll have to dig through my files to find my chronograph test. I have tried WST again and have used both 4.5 And 4.7, my best results have been with the 4.5 with the Nosler and the Zero JHP,s. I have not Ransom rested these loads but my scores have remained close to what I been shooting.(which has not been good lately). when I was shooting on a regular basis I used the 452AA, 4.3 at 50 yds and 3.8 at 25 yds with Valiant 200 gr SWC. I'll dig up my targets for both and try to post them later.
Randy

OK, thanks, maybe I'll give 4.3 another try, since that's what the Star is set up for.

WSTand VV320 (they tell me) I have two pounds and have not used them yet.

Original stuff.. Full to the brim..
It has no physical resemblance to WST at all.. It is a true ball powder.

My stash is in metal cans. I'll try to post a picture if I can ever figure out this Intertubes thingy...

I plan some serious testing with that keg for both 38 spl. and 45.. I have found powders that  produce acceptable velocities,  at low pressures, produce  excellent groups..  452AA  is one such powder..231 also makes suitable FPS with low pressures..
My 10 twist 38 barrel blank is on the way from Douglas...

Jerry, here's the stuff I have:





This also may be of interest: http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?powder_id=239

Ah...Very nice pristine can... Yes, the granules look identical to mine.

[img][/img]Somebody PLEASE sell me 10 lbs!!.  I found two target that I fired from the Ransom Rest several years ago using 4.3 grs of 452AA. I'll try to attach them to this reply.
Randy
[img][/img]

I have found no 1:1 replacement for 452AA. WST has certainly NOT been it in my .45s. WST has been worse than TiteGroup and Clays.
I currently use 231/HP38. It has been as good across bullet weights and charge weights as 452AA. AA2 and Red Dot are close.

I did it.

Maybe I should've put a rolled-up hundred-dollar-bill in that second photo - that might more accurately depict shooters' attitude towards 452AA