Mystery Pistol

It would seem more likely that it was a break action than a falling block to me but ..... The 'extra' parts shown on the side of the breech look like some form of manual extractor.

Centerfire or rimfire?

The grip doesn't look like it would be easy to 'grab' consistently but not that far removed from the Bisley style.

I will be interested to hear more about it.

Bruce

I looked at it and thought dueling pistol. Barrel sorta looks like Stoeger.

Old gallery gun.

I'm just guessing, but I believe it is a gallery or parlor pistol, made to shoot indoors. It was probably made in the late 19th century. It may be 6mm. I don't think that these pistols bring a great deal of money. You might have good luck going to www.targettalk.org and posting the photo there, as there are a lot of shooters from europe that are members.

BE Mike wrote:I'm just guessing, but I believe it is a gallery or parlor pistol, made to shoot indoors. It was probably made in the late 19th century. It may be 6mm. I don't think that these pistols bring a great deal of money. You might have good luck going to www.targettalk.org and posting the photo there, as there are a lot of shooters from europe that are members.

The first thought was Flobert in 6mm.  But, it's definitely .32 cal and definitely center-fire.  The caliber has me stumped.  I just don't know of any more or less modern International competition that used a single-shot handgun in anything but International Free Pistol. 

I was hoping that someone might know the history of our current Bullseye competition and would say... "oh... that for the "so-and-so" event."

Old German guns didn't always have the manufacturer's name on them but there was an elaborate system of proof-marks that ought to be able identify the manufacturer (once I have the firearm in hand).  That still might not tell me what it was designed for.

I'm not sure of the round that it fires but if it really is early 20th Century, it's unlikely to be in some rare caliber (like the rimfires).  I'm guessing that it may be .32 S&W (which was NOT known for accuracy) or the .32 S&W Long (which IS accurate).  Both cartridges made their appearance in the late 19th century.

It might be a 7.65x21 parabellum??? That's what this one is.


The 7.65 measure 7.83 at the lands. That would make it 31.8 caliber if measured there.??

That's worth checking out.  I just wonder if a gun-maker would want to chamber a hand-gun in a rimless cartridge.  At the turn of the century, rimless was pretty new-fangled, for the new auto-loaders.  I guess... if it headspaced on the shoulder, it would avoid some of the problems with other rimless cartridges that headspace on the case mouth.  

I have a feeling that I'm going to have to cast the chamber.  I saw a Midwayusa video on it and it looks quite simple.

It may be chambered for 32 rimfire. That was a common cartridge for what looks to be the time period of that pistol. About 10 or 15 years ago a company had produced a big lot of 32 rimfire and if you look around you can still find some. I believe one of the powered nail gun cartridges is a 32 rimfire blank. If I remember correctly the 32 S&W (not long) is a centerfire version of the 32 rimfire. Check to see if the pistol is a rimfire or centerfire.

It should be easy to tell if it is the 7.65x21. They have a shoulder and probably headspace off it.

And, it should be easy to tell if it's a rimfire also.

As I've said, I don't have the firearm in hand yet.  However, the dealer is an old-timer in the gun-business and a specialist in older, classic firearms and black-powder.  Others tell me that it's probably in 6mm Flobart by it's external appearance.  But... I can't imagine that my friend/dealer would think the bore is .32 cal and the bolt is centerfire if it wasn't.

And... until I've slugged the barrel and/or cast the chamber, I really can't rule out a rimless round but.... it seems illogical that a single-shot, dating to the early 20th century would have been chambered for a rimless cartridges.  The rimless pistol cartridge was relatively new and was developed to more easily stack and cycle in the new auto-loaders, just as rimless rifle cartridges had been developed to stack in magazine-type rifle repeaters.

I've shot 9x19 (9mm Parabellum) in a Ruger Blackhawk (conversion cylinder) and they gunk up after fairly few rounds.  Perhaps a necked-down pistol round, that headspaces on the shoulder, rather than the case-mouth would do better.

Still.. logically, you have to ask why a pistol-maker would bother with the problems of building a single-shot for a rimless cartridge in .32 cal, when both the .32 S&W and the .32 S&W Long were popular and introduced in the 19th century.

There were a number of rimmed  32 cal rounds in use in the late 19th century.  Depending on where it was made could be for 7.5 Swiss or Swedish, 8mm Lebel, 32 short or long Colt, or even the British 320, although the 7.5s  an 8mm Lebel might be a bit too powerful for a gun that light.  A chamber cast is definitely needed to be sure, and even then it may not be a round that is listed in references, particularly if it did not have wide distribution.  With the fixed sights it looks more like a casual shooter than a true target pistol, but if in an available caliber would be a fun shooter (assuming it is safe to shoot).

I know that you didn't have it in hand the last time you posted and probably still don't. I would point out one thing however. The pistol in the picture I posted above is a 7.65x21. I would think that shows that they would indeed make a pistol like that in a rimless. Possibly an example of nationality.

Len

Well?????

Well... the mystery is over and it's a bit anticlimactic.  Through the kind assistance of Arjan van Baggum, we were able to identify it.  Arjan actually found pictures of it in some of his archive-catalogs.  (Arjan prepared an extensive report on it, including scans of documents.  The whole report is 4.5 mb and I'll be happy to forward it to anyone who gives me their email address and a request.)  






It;'s a Roux Salon-Pistol, popular in Europe around the turn of the century and until the 1920's.  Probably made in Belgium or Germany.  Medium quality and price, there were far better ones.


My best guess is that it's .32 Rimfire.  Once I got the pistol in hand, I noticed that the firing pin does indeed resemble a centerfire pin.  But... looking at the breech, I notice a dimple that was obviously machined (although there looks to be some light damage from dry-firing).






Again, looking closely, the firing pin does not center on the chamber as it would for a centerfire gun but is offset to the rim.


Unfortunately, .32 rimfire is not being made.  Some years back,m there was some limited production but those rounds are going for about  $5.00/ each.  The vintage rounds come up for more money and they are not to be shot (too old).  Also, there are ..32 rimfire short and ..32 rimfire long cartridges.  I don't know which mine is although it should not be hard to find out.  The best bet for actually firing the pistol would be some special shells.  These run about $40/6 including shipping.  They are brass cases with an offset hole drilled into end.  A crimped .22 blank cartridge fits into the hole and you position it for that the firing pin hits it's rim.  A .32 cal bullet (probably a lead ball) is seated in the case mouth.  If necessary, some black powder can be dropped in behind the bullet but I suspect that the power of the blank itself is sufficient for short range.  I haven't undertaken to do all that quite yet.  The bore is very nice and free of rust and I see no reason why the gun couldn't be shot with this method.






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Thanks for solving the mystery. Cool, very old school. I would like to have one for a wall-hanger if the price was reasonable.

Reloader Magazine had an article or three in the mid? 1980s about using chamber adapters and rimfire nailgun cartridges to launch round balls down the bores of CF rifles. 

IIRC, at least one cartridge-powered nail gun uses a powered/powdered "blank" close enough to work in .32 rimfire chambers...

AND I clearly remember that some of those things (though maybe they were the .22 RF size???) came in three different power levels. Not all concrete is created equal, you know.

Some more digging might reveal some cheaper sources for something that might work.  Primed cases would be ideal, as you could choose either guaranteed-safe BP loads or mouse-sneeze 1-2 gr charges of fast pistol powder. I would stick with round balls.

Starter blanks might also be a "power source"

The .22 blanks that are used in power nailers are extremely available and come in a variety of charges.  Starter blanks aren't intended for driving a projectile, and may not be consistent enough for safety or accuracy.  The power nailer blanks are intended to drive a projectile AND they are rated for the amount of boom they contain.