Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

First topic message reminder :

Good morning all.  I was on this site this morning and read through the questions being asked about the Cardinal Center.  I thought that I would share some things with you and generate some discussion.

Mark Johnson, the COO of CMP, has advised that he will go to his Board of Directors and ask for funding to install electronic targets at Camp Perry that will be suitable to fire High Power, Smallbore, and Pistol.  If approved, the target date for being up and running is for the start of the National Matches in 2017.  The NRA will pay a lease fee to CMP for use of these targets.

I was recently contacted by a representative of the Cardinal Center and asked to commit to going there in 2017.  Cardinal Center will probably use turning targets and paper, just like what we use at Camp Perry now.  I did not commit but left the door open.  I cannot commit to going to a range that currently does not exist.  The target date for the start of the Cardinal Center is the start of the National Matches in 2017.

So now we might be faced with a choice; 1) stay at Camp Perry and shoot on electronic targets; 2) move to Cardinal Center and shoot on turning targets.

Everyone who has shot the National Matches knows what Camp Perry is like so I won't dwell on that.  At Cardinal Center there would be some major changes.  Not in the way the events are fired but in the way you live.  The cabins onsite would likely be taken up by the NRA to house staff, leaving RVs and hotels as the other housing options.  If you elect NOT to rent/bring an RV, hotels become important.  The nearest exit with hotels is 9 miles away and the next exit with hotels is 19 miles away.  I don't consider these distances to be objectionable but you might based on what you are used to.  At Bianchi Cup competitors drive 15 miles one way to the range each day and don't complain about it but this is a major change from the way things work at Camp Perry.  It won't be quite so easy to run back to your room after shooting a morning 900 and then return for the team matches that afternoon.  There is one, and only one, restaurant on site but plenty near the hotels.

The Cardinal Center is a terrific place but will entail some changes by everyone, NRA and competitors, alike.

Kick around the pros and cons and let me know what you think.

Dennis Willing

C-Train wrote:

Danehogle wrote:Wobbley,
In the NFL, the field is still 100 yards.
In Baseball, the bases are still 90 feet apart.
In NASCAR, they are still racing cars with four tires.
Shooting a championship in a  manner in witch only a hand full of military and civilians who live near  Talledega may practice, IMO is the problem.

And in bullseye, with electronic or paper targets, the distances from the shooter to the target will still be 25 & 50 yards. The same amount of time will be used for Slow, Timed, and Rapid. The size of the black on the targets will be the same. I don't accept the argument that you can't practice for the Nationals on paper and it will somehow be a completely different sport if you have an electronic target. The only difference will be the turning targets. And that is only to make it clear if someone pops off a shot too early. Plenty of people who shoot air pistol practice on paper targets, then shoot electronic targets in matches. If the targets are the same size, the amount of time is the same, the distances are the same, how in the world are you going to not be able to shoot the same on match day with electronic targets?

Because, shooting the turn is an acquired skill in TF/RF..Much, much, training is done with turning targets and 1 / 2 second drills to perfect the 1st shot.. E targets are not the same, and won't be the same..

I agree it takes skill to shoot the turn, but does it take more or less skill to come up from the ready position acquire the target and fire the 5 rounds in 20 and 10 seconds.  Any input from bullseye/ISSF shooters or people who have competed in the 22lr EIC would be appreciated.

The turn is a big part of bullseye. You can learn to do anything, and currently for EIC 22 you go from low ready and have a turning target. But the 22 EIC match is a 30 shot match with 4 strings shot from low ready. On the other hand a 2700 is 270 shots with 36 target turns. 

I am not adverse to trying the E-target, but the turn of the target is an important part of bullseye.

Another thought is maybe more places will hold matches and introduce new shooters to the sport on local ranges if having turning targets was not a requirement. Where I live I do not have a range with turning targets. When I show up to match I have to fire on turning targets that I am not familiar with. Of all the ranges I have shot at across a few states every range and a different turn speed.

A change in the course of fire is the only way I see the e-targets bring fair and equitable for all shooters. 
Now e-targets handling multiple strings of 2700 shooters no clue how that will work.

On another note. I am for Cardinal holding the national match on paper for now.

Most ranges only use turning targets during a scheduled match. The turning system is unavailable for individual practice.. Many shooters who take the game seriously own and maintain a portable turning system to train on..A good shooter reports to the line with enough time to observe and calculate the turning speed of the target mechanism.. 
The wide majority of Master and High Masters that I know and associate with are opposed to the e target system.. Wonder why that is..???

Change is scary.

Christopher Miceli wrote:I agree it takes skill to shoot the turn, but does it take more or less skill to come up from the ready position acquire the target and fire the 5 rounds in 20 and 10 seconds.  Any input from bullseye/rapid fire shooters  or people who have competed in the 22lr EIC would be appreciated.

  I have competed in ISSF Standard Pistol, ISSF Centerfire, and .22 EIC.  I work on getting my body and arm aligned so that when I raise my pistol everything is lined up and I don't spend time getting the sight picture.

  Once you gain proficiency, the rapid fire stage of NRA Precision Pistol seems quite leisurely

C-Train wrote:
And in bullseye, with electronic or paper targets, the distances from the shooter to the target will still be 25 & 50 yards. The same amount of time will be used for Slow, Timed, and Rapid. The size of the black on the targets will be the same. I don't accept the argument that you can't practice for the Nationals on paper and it will somehow be a completely different sport if you have an electronic target. The only difference will be the turning targets. And that is only to make it clear if someone pops off a shot too early. Plenty of people who shoot air pistol practice on paper targets, then shoot electronic targets in matches. If the targets are the same size, the amount of time is the same, the distances are the same, how in the world are you going to not be able to shoot the same on match day with electronic targets?

There is no other sport that you can make an apple to apple comparison.  There is no red dot used in air pistol so it doesn't matter what the black target looks like because you are looking at the sights.  In Precision Pistol, using a red dot, you are looking at the black.  With paper targets I look for the X and many shooters do also.  In fact I can see the x from 50 yards.  With e-targets there is nothing inside the black to look at.  Huge difference for many shooters.  Ask Brian Zins what he looks at, the target or the dot.  I already know what the answer is.  

My high score is 2634.  I shot that because I own a turning target and use it a lot.  I even dry fire 2 second drills in my back yard.  You can read any of my previous posts and you will see that I credit my success to owning and practicing on one.   

Change is scary?  This change doesn't scare me.  I just wouldn't take part in it until it became more established and the systems ran correctly. I'm not the only one. 

My bet is that if the NRA has the 2017 Nationals using e-targets, another range will simply hold a big match at the same time with turning targets.

Christopher,
You do relies that turning targets are several thousands of $ less per point.
There is a huge difference between changing the venue and changing the core of the entire sport.
My question for the CMP is why do the wish to spend millions for pistol targets? Could it be the the CMP itself are the only provider of these targets? Trying to corner the market by forcing the change even though 72% of us don't want it? I have a good reason not to change.... Saving money.

I built my own three target turning system, and I didn't spend tens of thousands of $ doing it.

Jerry Keefer wrote:

C-Train wrote:

Danehogle wrote:Wobbley,
In the NFL, the field is still 100 yards.
In Baseball, the bases are still 90 feet apart.
In NASCAR, they are still racing cars with four tires.
Shooting a championship in a  manner in witch only a hand full of military and civilians who live near  Talledega may practice, IMO is the problem.

And in bullseye, with electronic or paper targets, the distances from the shooter to the target will still be 25 & 50 yards. The same amount of time will be used for Slow, Timed, and Rapid. The size of the black on the targets will be the same. I don't accept the argument that you can't practice for the Nationals on paper and it will somehow be a completely different sport if you have an electronic target. The only difference will be the turning targets. And that is only to make it clear if someone pops off a shot too early. Plenty of people who shoot air pistol practice on paper targets, then shoot electronic targets in matches. If the targets are the same size, the amount of time is the same, the distances are the same, how in the world are you going to not be able to shoot the same on match day with electronic targets?

Because, shooting the turn is an acquired skill in TF/RF..Much, much, training is done with turning targets and 1  /  2 second drills to perfect the 1st shot..  E targets are not the same, and won't  be the same..

Maybe I fail to realize it because I'm a new shooter, but how is shooting the turn an acquired skill? As a newbie, I've been pouring over articles, and it seems that the top shooters are already applying positive pressure on the trigger, and are essentially releasing the shot at the same time as the turn. So if they are doing it from timing of the last command, and not a reaction to the target, then how does that differ? If the timing of the commands doesn't change, and you get to aim at the target and release your shot at the same time as the beep, then it would effectively remain the same.

Unless of course, they do make us shoot from the low ready position, which would be major to me. I think it would be even more difficult if I had years of this experience.

Thanks,
Carlos

I have nothing against turning targets. I voted for Cardinal with paper turning in the pole. But the cmp has show with the 22lr EIC and cmp games shot on ranges that do no have e-targets, they start from the low ready and when the targets turn you come up to the target.


 I challenge anyone to come up with suggestions on how you will transition from matches that use turning targets and the nationals that use stationary e targets? 


As for training with a turning target I agree with many of you that it is a must.  That's why I am building one of Ed halls designed targets.

Come on guys... This is not rocket science. Talledega has been up and running for over 6 months and they are still having problems. ( see the range report on the other thread ). Also see the CMP forum page http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=176510 Ranges closed for the week prior to the match...
To get everything fixed... And you think that putting eTargets in a temporary faction at Perry, to be used for one week a year is a good idea....????

In the current state of the etargets I don't think it's  a good idea. The change is coming though...sooner or later.

Well I propose much later. Price will drop, procedures will be written and verified, Technology will get better.
When 51% of the clubs out there have them, we should shoot paper.

[quote="gptuners"][quote="Jerry Keefer"][quote="C-Train"]

Danehogle wrote:Wobbley,



Maybe I fail to realize it because I'm a new shooter, but how is shooting the turn an acquired skill?
Thanks,
Carlos

Do you notice that many High Master shooters clean much of the short line..?? When you can consistently do that, you'll know what I mean..Quite a number of us have devoted our entire lives to this game.. I am 73 years old, started in the early 1960s, and still spend 8 / 12 hours a day, every day, working on guns, or coaching..The only time I am not thinking, or plotting to improve the guns, better ammo, or train better etc., is when I am asleep. That's why I strongly oppose e targets..

Jerry Keefer wrote:

Do you notice that many High Master shooters clean much of the short line..?? When you can consistently do that, you'll know what I mean..Quite a number of us  have devoted our entire lives to this game.. I am 73 years old, started in the early 1960s, and still spend 8 / 12  hours a day, every day,  working on guns, or coaching..The  only time I am not thinking, or plotting to improve the guns, better ammo, or train  better etc., is when I am  asleep.  That's why I strongly  oppose  e targets..

I did- but do you react to the target, or the commands? 

I figured for those of you that are such great shooters, the shot process wouldn't change. You'd clean anything  set in front of you, from a coffee can painted black at 25, an e-target, or a paper one.

FYI- still shooting at 73? I want to be like you when I grow up! 

Thanks,
Carlos

Carlos your question was answered earlier. When you get to the line you watch the rate at which the targets turn, then you factor that into your process and the commands. Otherwise you are shooting at targets that aren't there or waiting too long to shoot. High Masters seldom wait to long and their use of one shot drills and turning targets generally have them shooting X's and 10's on that first shot.

FYI- still shooting at 73?
Thanks,
Carlos[/quote]

No, I no longer shoot competitively..although I can still shoot a few cleans..  I get more satisfaction from building abstract guns and coaching my protoege'..

Christopher Miceli wrote:I agree it takes skill to shoot the turn, but does it take more or less skill to come up from the ready position acquire the target and fire the 5 rounds in 20 and 10 seconds.  Any input from bullseye/ISSF shooters or people who have competed in the 22lr EIC would be appreciated.

Turning targets are easier to shoot than lights or horn and FAR easier than starting at low ready. You don't have to devote much if any mental focus on when to shoot. The decision is simple, if you see the target, shoot, if not, don't.

I wonder how hard it would be to install a hinge with a cardboard cover that would flip open revealing the black center when the command to commence firing starts.  It would require additional maintenance but would simulate the target turning (i.e. the shooter can see the target.

A system that slides would work, it would have to operate fast which can be done.  I have seem some commerical garage doors that are scary fast.

Zins once said that he "puts the dot on the X and then shoots the gun." How do you put the dot on the X if there is no X?

With corrected eyesight I can read the X at 50 and 25 yards. 

Let the kinks get worked out and then we should talk about it, but e targets will cost more and have a shorter life than electro-mechanical targets. Further, I don't see them increasing participation.

Right now, at Perry, I shoot my relay and then leave for the next relay to shoot. The way the rules have been written due to the issues at Talledega, I would need to shoot my relay and then stand around and watch the next relay shoot while I served as "verifier." While a verifier fits with the rifle Course of Fire, it does not fit with the bullseye course of fire. 

I would like to stay at Perry and have the Nationals in one place. But I want turning targets and target faces.

jmdavis wrote:Carlos your question was answered earlier. When you get to the line you watch the rate at which the targets turn, then you factor that into your process and the commands. Otherwise you are shooting at targets that aren't there or waiting too long to shoot. High Masters seldom wait to long and their use of one shot drills and turning targets generally have them shooting X's and 10's on that first shot.

Sorry, I think I missed the meaning or something. I got it now.

Jerry Keefer wrote:No, I no longer shoot competitively..although I can still shoot a few cleans..Smile  I get more satisfaction from building abstract guns and coaching my protoege'..

Nice! 

Thanks for the patience all- I didn't want people to think I was trolling... I'm legitimately trying to get into the minds of the great shooters. Coming from a run and gun for fun background to this is eye opening.

Carlos

I initially thought when they were talking about verifiers when shooting with e-targets that someone was just getting rifle and pistol rules confused. After reading the report from Talledaga and reading subsequent posts I am amazed that they are considering this for pistol at all. I can not even imagine standing there on the line and verifying for someone then having to shoot my own 900. Talk about an advantage for the first round shooters. They would need to have chairs and a covered area for us old folks to even think about it. This is just totally un-realistic and poorly thought out. That's my .02.

Len

I did- but do you react to the target, or the commands? 
Carlos[/quote]
Carlos,
Going back over this thread I saw your question..
My concept..
There should be no reaction..
It's a planned event, that starts with the commands.
This is what the shooter learns to focus on with 1 and 2 second drills.. Developing a shot process that does not use a conscious reaction. The shooter has the mental process in motion before the target turns, and it continues without reaction until the shot breaks. Mental focus and discipline. The turn should not cause the shooter to do anything..mental or physical..they are following the plan.. The human brain reacts to what it sees, and it takes training to defeat the urge to fire at the turn, and the sound of other shots. The shooter analyzes and reads the first sequence, and mentally advances or retards the process.