Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

by DirComp Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:05 am

First topic message reminder :

Good morning all. I was on this site this morning and read through the questions being asked about the Cardinal Center. I thought that I would share some things with you and generate some discussion.

Mark Johnson, the COO of CMP, has advised that he will go to his Board of Directors and ask for funding to install electronic targets at Camp Perry that will be suitable to fire High Power, Smallbore, and Pistol. If approved, the target date for being up and running is for the start of the National Matches in 2017. The NRA will pay a lease fee to CMP for use of these targets.

I was recently contacted by a representative of the Cardinal Center and asked to commit to going there in 2017. Cardinal Center will probably use turning targets and paper, just like what we use at Camp Perry now. I did not commit but left the door open. I cannot commit to going to a range that currently does not exist. The target date for the start of the Cardinal Center is the start of the National Matches in 2017.

So now we might be faced with a choice; 1) stay at Camp Perry and shoot on electronic targets; 2) move to Cardinal Center and shoot on turning targets.

Everyone who has shot the National Matches knows what Camp Perry is like so I won't dwell on that. At Cardinal Center there would be some major changes. Not in the way the events are fired but in the way you live. The cabins onsite would likely be taken up by the NRA to house staff, leaving RVs and hotels as the other housing options. If you elect NOT to rent/bring an RV, hotels become important. The nearest exit with hotels is 9 miles away and the next exit with hotels is 19 miles away. I don't consider these distances to be objectionable but you might based on what you are used to. At Bianchi Cup competitors drive 15 miles one way to the range each day and don't complain about it but this is a major change from the way things work at Camp Perry. It won't be quite so easy to run back to your room after shooting a morning 900 and then return for the team matches that afternoon. There is one, and only one, restaurant on site but plenty near the hotels.

The Cardinal Center is a terrific place but will entail some changes by everyone, NRA and competitors, alike.

Kick around the pros and cons and let me know what you think.

Dennis Willing

by sixftunda Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:39 pm

No one is saying that Cardinal won't have electronic targets someday. They just won't have them in 2017. The range designs they have now do allow for the installation of E-targets later on.

Another thing that bears repeating. The only time a pistol shooter can compete at Camp Perry is at Nationals. Name another sport that does that?? If Nationals were held at another range we would get the opportunity to shoot there at other times. That is a big plus in my opinion.

by CR10X Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:07 pm

No, it means some shooters will have to opportunity to shoot there, others not so much.

Don't care if it rains or is muddy or hot, that just gives the better prepared competitor an advantage over the unprepared, non focused shooter that goes to pieces with the first gust of wind or drops of rain. Hold you horse, stand on two legs and shoot.

IPSC and Action Pistol (Bianchi)shoot nationals in the mud, rain, wind and heat all the time.

Over the last 16 years there has only been a few years of real rain and mud. Everyone talks a lot about the bad conditions, how else could they explain their crappy scores?

And yes, I've shot on the electronic targets at Perry at 50 and 25 yards outdoors. Can't see the lights with a dot, rubber sheet ripped and gave false location, no way to identify crossfires since every shot shows up as programmed size, no way for shooter to verify calibration or size input (see reports from CMP match earlier this year) and I've not seen how they handle a real 5X and 5X knothole group in rapid fire. Yes, they can work, but are support and shooters ready to make them work?

All that crap aside, my concern is that the National Championships and the National Matches (how many posters here actually know the difference?) for pistol try to stay at the same location for the benefit of all the shooters.

CR

by Danehogle Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:16 pm

Richard, the three building that have 192 beds per building that Cardinal has access to leaves the cabins For shooters...

by james r chapman Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:01 pm

CR, I know of no other shooting sport where competitors are standing mid calf deep in mud.
Shooting in the rain, etc, when standing on a concrete/cement/roadtop/gravel pad is totally different than Perry.

something that probably could/should/have been addressed decades ago.

by sixftunda Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:03 pm

CR- I'm still googling for a picture of an action pistol shooter with their pretty holster and sponsor shirt shooting prone in ankle deep mud. I'll keep looking....

by ChipEck Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:19 pm

sixftunda wrote:CR- I'm still googling for a picture of an action pistol shooter with their pretty holster and sponsor shirt shooting prone in ankle deep mud. I'll keep looking....

Camp Perry or Cardinal Center - Page 6 Imagejpeg

by CR10X Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:19 am

Thanks for the pictures. Been there and done it in this country and a couple of others. Funny how even shooters can be snobs about other shooting sports. And please don't make disparaging remark about any other shooting sports (pretty holster and sponsor shirts, etc.) I would rather be gentlemanly and inclusive of all shooting sports. I try to respect the opinions of all, even those that have never been to Perry or run a match, or even shot one. Don't care if its skeet, clays, rifle, ppc, action pistol, cowboy, etc; we dam well need to be nice to each other or we WILL watch each sport die separately.

If anyone wants to shoot on concrete, indoors, no wind, equal lights, even electronic targets; then I suggest International / Olympic pistol. But those matches are hard to find. I wonder why?

Maybe that is an important point to make. We already have several different types of pistol sports. Trying to make them more similar may not be the best option.

Good Shooting.

CR

by sixftunda Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:28 am

There must be some technical issues because I'm not the only one who cannot see any pictures. Can you provide a link or email them?

by sixftunda Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:46 am

CR10X wrote:Thanks for the pictures. Been there and done it in this country and a couple of others. Funny how even shooters can be snobs about other shooting sports. And please don't make disparaging remark about any other shooting sports (pretty holster and sponsor shirts, etc.) I would rather be gentlemanly and inclusive of all shooting sports. I try to respect the opinions of all, even those that have never been to Perry or run a match, or even shot one. Don't care if its skeet, clays, rifle, ppc, action pistol, cowboy, etc; we dam well need to be nice to each other or we WILL watch each sport die separately.

If anyone wants to shoot on concrete, indoors, no wind, equal lights, even electronic targets; then I suggest International / Olympic pistol. But those matches are hard to find. I wonder why?

Maybe that is an important point to make. We already have several different types of pistol sports. Trying to make them more similar may not be the best option.

Good Shooting.

CR

You are mistaken about my remark being disparaging. I have a pretty sponsor shirt and equipment and wouldn't dream of laying in the firing point I had at Camp Perry this year.
Precision Pistol matches on concrete or decently drained gravel are not hard to find at all in my area. Five or six ranges by my count. Given that fact, I do expect better from the people and groups who run the National Championship.

by DirComp Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:08 am

Jack H wrote:How does an e-target handle crossfires? In detail please.

Is the electronic record final? Can you protest the target, or confirm it's calibration?

Jack,

For Timed/Rapid Fire you would handle crossfires just like you do now. The difference will be that you cannot distinguish between shots so it's the low 10 or refire and you cannot exceed the high 10, just like always. In Slow Fire, as soon as an errant shot hits your target and is displayed on the screen, contact the range officer for his assistance. The shot can be removed if it is verified that you did not shoot it. If this cannot be verified (shots missing from adjacent targets, someone claiming the crossfire, etc)., you revert to the excessive hit rule.

You cannot challenge the score of a target because there are any scoring rings or shot holes for you to compare. Pistol targets are generally accurate to 1/100th of an inch. Targets will be calibrated each day and this can be verified through documentation.

Denny

by gptuners Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:11 am

Can you enlighten a new shooter that has only shot CMP matches so far - when you keep referring to the National Championship, are you only referring to the NRA events?

I shot the CMP events at Camp Perry this year (as my first competitive experience), but still don't really know if that counts as "National Matches", "National Championship", or what...

Thanks,
Carlos

by DirComp Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:19 am

"Precision Pistol matches on concrete or decently drained gravel are not hard to find at all in my area. Five or six ranges by my count. Given that fact, I do expect better from the people and groups who run the National Championship." sixfttunda

Sixftunda,

In a perfect world you are right, but OHNG lives in no such world. Everything that they do MUST have a military purpose or otherwise it cannot be done. To get funding to get anything done might take them years to justify it.

The NRA is not allowed to do anything that will result in a permanent change to the surface of the ranges. We always have to keep in mind that we are guests here. The ranges are used for the National Matches for only 6 weeks in the year and rest of the time those ranges are military training ranges.

OHNG, is as supportive as they can be, but they do not live for the National Championships like we do. Their support, though invaluable, has its limits. In 2015, we experienced a 25% reduction in manpower support for the matches.

That being said, they are working to improve things where they can. The new drain fields should be complete by the time we begin next year. We can only hope that they will work properly.

Maybe CMP will pour a concrete slab for competitors to shoot from when they install the electronic targets.

Denny

by DirComp Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:27 am

gptuners wrote:Can you enlighten a new shooter that has only shot CMP matches so far - when you keep referring to the National Championship, are you only referring to the NRA events?

I shot the CMP events at Camp Perry this year (as my first competitive experience), but still don't really know if that counts as "National Matches", "National Championship", or what...

Thanks,
Carlos

Carlos,

This is a quick overview.

The National Matches encompass all events at Camp Perry. Currently, there are National Championships held by the NRA in Pistol, Across the Course High Power (generally just referred to as High Power), Mid-Range High Power and Long Range High Power. CMP hosts the National Trophy Matches which consist of the President's 100, National Trophy Individual (NTI, "leg match"), and National Trophy Team (NTT) in both Pistol and High Power. In High Power they also host the National Trophy Infantry Team (NTIT) also known as the "rattle battle". As side from these National Trophy or National Championship Matches, the CMP also hosts their "games matches", which have no national trophies or national championship titles connected to them. These are fun courses of fire that use vintage firearms and are normally fired in one day.

Denny

by sixftunda Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:11 pm

DirComp wrote:"Precision Pistol matches on concrete or decently drained gravel are not hard to find at all in my area. Five or six ranges by my count. Given that fact, I do expect better from the people and groups who run the National Championship." sixfttunda

Sixftunda,

In a perfect world you are right, but OHNG lives in no such world. Everything that they do MUST have a military purpose or otherwise it cannot be done. To get funding to get anything done might take them years to justify it.

The NRA is not allowed to do anything that will result in a permanent change to the surface of the ranges. We always have to keep in mind that we are guests here. The ranges are used for the National Matches for only 6 weeks in the year and rest of the time those ranges are military training ranges.

OHNG, is as supportive as they can be, but they do not live for the National Championships like we do. Their support, though invaluable, has its limits. In 2015, we experienced a 25% reduction in manpower support for the matches.

That being said, they are working to improve things where they can. The new drain fields should be complete by the time we begin next year. We can only hope that they will work properly.

Maybe CMP will pour a concrete slab for competitors to shoot from when they install the electronic targets.

Denny

Denny,

I appreciate your response. I think we all understand the situation that the NRA and the CMP is dealing with when it comes to the OHNG. As shooters we want to be proactive about our sport and the word "Proactive" will never be used to describe the OHNG. They have a completely different focus and it is completely justified given their true mission.

However, if we are going to advance our sport and competitive shooting as a whole, it is time to make sure that ALL parties involved have a mission to be proactive. This means ending the relationship with the OHNG. Cardinal Center has a core goal of promoting shooting sports. They have a focus on keeping traditions intact while bringing things like facilities and infrastructure into the 21st century.

It is time for a change to take place. We desperately need every entity involved in the National Championships to have the same common goal; To proactively promote and bring positive change to competitive shooting.

by DavidR Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:21 pm

Perry has the nostalgia but there comes a time for change, if the OHNG cant provide needed up grades along with the high costs with storage of range equipment and poor conditions at perry, moving to a modern range is long over due imo.

by Chris Miceli Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:33 pm

So besides us discussing where the national match ~~will~~ should be held, has anyone expressed the idea to the CMP or NRA?

by **Rob Kovach** Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:47 pm

Christopher,

I know this is 6 pages, but if you read from the beginning, the user DirComp is Dennis Willing--he is the NRA Director of Competition.

CMP is apparently on the path to electronic targets since they are the US distributor of the product.

by Danehogle Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:50 pm

Christopher,
DirCimp is Dennis Willing, the Director of Compatutions for the NRA.
He posted the original question.
That being said, yes the NRA is involved in this discussion.
If I do believe, and Dennis correct me if I am wrong, That Dennis is also on the board of the CMP.

by Danehogle Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:55 pm

Oops... Sorry Rob

by Chris Miceli Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:03 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:Christopher,

I know this is 6 pages, but if you read from the beginning, the user DirComp is Dennis Willing--he is the NRA Director of Competition.

CMP is apparently on the path to electronic targets since they are the US distributor of the product.

Thanks Rob and Dane, most of missed some posts.... this thread has blown up since the start.

I did not know the CMP was the distributor of the E target products they are using. I see that being a major push of the CMP and E targets. On another thought.... If more people use E targets matches could add a Postal like version of a NMC, unless we have a current paper version one now.

by SteveT Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:10 pm

Christopher Miceli wrote:So besides us discussing where the national match ~~will~~ should be held, has anyone expressed the idea to the CMP or NRA?

DirComp is Dennis Willing, the NRA Director of Competitions.

by Danehogle Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:59 pm

For all of you that have not see the new e-target rules.... You might want to read them. Over on the E-target thread.

by Danehogle Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:23 pm

After reading these new rules, I will be down south at cardinal, July 2017, nationals or not...

by Jerry Keefer Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:50 pm

Danehogle wrote:After reading these new rules, I will be down south at cardinal, July 2017, nationals or not...

I don't think you'll be alone...

by Danehogle Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:07 am

Dennis,
is the NRA looking to use these CMP rules to govern e targets use for NRA matches?

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