Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

First topic message reminder :

Good morning all.  I was on this site this morning and read through the questions being asked about the Cardinal Center.  I thought that I would share some things with you and generate some discussion.

Mark Johnson, the COO of CMP, has advised that he will go to his Board of Directors and ask for funding to install electronic targets at Camp Perry that will be suitable to fire High Power, Smallbore, and Pistol.  If approved, the target date for being up and running is for the start of the National Matches in 2017.  The NRA will pay a lease fee to CMP for use of these targets.

I was recently contacted by a representative of the Cardinal Center and asked to commit to going there in 2017.  Cardinal Center will probably use turning targets and paper, just like what we use at Camp Perry now.  I did not commit but left the door open.  I cannot commit to going to a range that currently does not exist.  The target date for the start of the Cardinal Center is the start of the National Matches in 2017.

So now we might be faced with a choice; 1) stay at Camp Perry and shoot on electronic targets; 2) move to Cardinal Center and shoot on turning targets.

Everyone who has shot the National Matches knows what Camp Perry is like so I won't dwell on that.  At Cardinal Center there would be some major changes.  Not in the way the events are fired but in the way you live.  The cabins onsite would likely be taken up by the NRA to house staff, leaving RVs and hotels as the other housing options.  If you elect NOT to rent/bring an RV, hotels become important.  The nearest exit with hotels is 9 miles away and the next exit with hotels is 19 miles away.  I don't consider these distances to be objectionable but you might based on what you are used to.  At Bianchi Cup competitors drive 15 miles one way to the range each day and don't complain about it but this is a major change from the way things work at Camp Perry.  It won't be quite so easy to run back to your room after shooting a morning 900 and then return for the team matches that afternoon.  There is one, and only one, restaurant on site but plenty near the hotels.

The Cardinal Center is a terrific place but will entail some changes by everyone, NRA and competitors, alike.

Kick around the pros and cons and let me know what you think.

Dennis Willing

Dane,

I just completed writing electronic target rules for High Power, at their request.  It would take little modification to adopt these to Pistol.  I have not seen the CMP rules.

Denny

Here is the link..
http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/ESTScoringRules.pdf

I voted for Cardinal. After reading the proposed rules for e-targets, I feel like the choice is between playing the game I'm familiar with at a different location, or playing a completely different game at the same place I've been going to.

If I remember correctly, it was said that there would be 2 ranges, one 50 yard and one 25 yard, each with 150 positions. That would mean moving your equipment back and forth 150+ yards, rather than 25 yards like we do now. And on prelim day, well, I don't want to think about that. If we move to Cardinal, my hope is that my box can stay put, and I can just move my target frame from 50 to 25 and back.

RReid, and that is what will happen at Cardinal box stays put, frame moves

http://tonybrong.blogspot.com/?m=1

I respect Tony's opinion. I also have family who live in Marble Head. 85% of summer revenue comes from fishing.
How many of you wake up to a hotel parking lot full of boats? And it is that way from May tell September. For every one shooter, there are 10 fisherman and family's.
As to the political impact, only some small rumbles between districts. Most are more upset about small bore going to another state.
Interesting is the fact that if we, the competitors were so important, why do we have to stay in 3 world condition while shooting a national championship.......

Dane,
It seems that most of our competitors seem to like Camp Perry for the availability of the cheap and convenient housing on base.  However, this is the only championship that we run where this type of housing is available.  In all other events competitors stay in hotels/motels.  In most cases they drive 10-20 miles one-way to the range each day.  Those held at Fort Benning include a security check each day.

Because the Port Clinton area is a resort area, prices are high.  The merchants either make their money in the summer or not at all.  In the winter, Port Clinton doesn't even have an operational traffic light and place almost appears to be deserted.  It's hard to find a deal on anything in the summer.

Housing in a hotel/motel is much cheaper at most of our other venues.  For example, with Smallbore in Indiana, we were able to negotiate a host hotel site with rooms at $59 per night, as compared to $50 for a hut at Camp Perry.  Not only did you not have to bring your own linen, but your room was cleaned daily and you received a free breakfast each morning.  You could put two to a bed plus a rollaway and have a 5 person room easily.  I've heard of up to 9 people staying in a single room. To me, for $9 per day, it would be a no-brainer.  We have now brought in a professional company to negotiate for us (at no cost) better rates for staff and competitors.

DirComp wrote:
Housing in a hotel/motel is much cheaper at most of our other venues.  For example, with Smallbore in Indiana, we were able to negotiate a host hotel site with rooms at $59 per night, as compared to $50 for a hut at Camp Perry.  Not only did you not have to bring your own linen, but your room was cleaned daily and you received a free breakfast each morning.  You could put two to a bed plus a rollaway and have a 5 person room easily.  I've heard of up to 9 people staying in a single room. To me, for $9 per day, it would be a no-brainer.  We have now brought in a professional company to negotiate for us (at no cost) better rates for staff and competitors.

+1 Yes, please

I too respect Tony's opinion and he makes a somewhat useful pro/con argument.  Other events are only one or two days and a night or two in a hotel is not an issue.  Perry on the other hand is a week long event and for my wife and I, we go up a day or two early.  We don't own or rent an RV and staying in an RV or hotel room for seven to nine nights is not what we do.  Port Clinton has an abundance of condos which we find preferable for long stays.  So far I have found no vacation condos near Cardinal and no one from Cardinal has come forth with a list.  If the move is made from Perry to Cardinal, we will shoot Canton and skip Cardinal.

DirComp wrote:I was recently contacted by a representative of the Cardinal Center and asked to commit to going there in 2017.  Cardinal Center will probably use turning targets and paper, just like what we use at Camp Perry now.  I did not commit but left the door open.  I cannot commit to going to a range that currently does not exist.  The target date for the start of the Cardinal Center is the start of the National Matches in 2017.

Kick around the pros and cons and let me know what you think.

Dennis Willing

Dennis,

Is it all or nothing with Cardinal?  Are they willing to install a bullseye range with turning targets and host some weekend matches, perhaps a multi-day event, a Regional or State Championship?  Or do they simply want to acquire the week long National?  It seems reasonable to me that Cardinal would host a number of smaller matches and let the marketplace determine if shooters prefer Cardinal over Perry.

If it's anything like their trap commitments, they will strive to be the best facility and have numerous of the best matches. Mr. Fishburn will expect no less.

Jim

A Michigan Trapshooter.

AllAces wrote:Is it all or nothing with Cardinal?  Are they willing to install a bullseye range with turning targets and host some weekend matches, perhaps a multi-day event, a Regional or State Championship?  Or do they simply want to acquire the week long National?  It seems reasonable to me that Cardinal would host a number of smaller matches and let the marketplace determine if shooters prefer Cardinal over Perry.

I don't think they are just looking at the Nationals.  IMHO they want Cardinal to be THE Precision Pistol venue, just like they have done in trapshooting.
In 2015 (so far) and just for trap, Cardinal has had 15 events with a total of over 12,000 participants, three events had 1,300-1,500 participants one had just over 1,900.  That's not even counting the leagues they host.  There is no doubt in my mind they can handle the numbers.

- Dave

It could be the spot for the first International or first World Bullseye tournament.  There are options.....Just thinking outside the box.

Chip

Interesting idea Chip..... Very interesting!!!!
To answer AllAces, no,
having the Nationals at cardinal would be a big deal...but It is not the only deal. For as long as I have been shooting, people say they would love to shoot at a range more than only one week a year.
That is part of the problem with Camp Perry. It is a temporary range. It is a loosing business plan.
Cardinal, as a private owned purpose built pistol and small bore range, would be more in tune with the competitors needs and wants.
Change is coming.... The question is what is that Change going to be.
Do we keep our sport as it has been for the last fifty years, just at a different location, or do we change the core of our sport itself and stay in the Cold War era Camp Perry. I have read all of these comments. There are very good opinions on both sides. like I have said, I am bias. I freely admit this. Why..??? Because I see Cardinal as a revival to our sport. A way to introduce over 10,000 sportsmen and women to conventional / precision / bullseye pistol. A complex where we can have a Glock match and an EIC match right next to each other, on the same day.... Just think of the possibilities....

For over 100 years, Camp Perry wasn't a business plan. It was the National Championships. The purpose of the National Championships was never to make money (at best to break even). It was to attract and foster a culture of shooting that brought dividends to the country. 

Some of those dividends come in international competition (such International shooters Sanderson, Milev and Chichov- with Sanderson winning the title), some comes from military preparedness and training (one has only to look at Sanderson, Norm Anderson or Grant Singley to see that influence), and some comes from creating a culture of shooting that fosters discipline and self-control in participants. I don't think that I need to explain that one.

I like bullseye and highpower because they are hard. Specifically because they are hard. They are not easily mastered and in a 2700 or a 2400 XTC match it will take more than luck to perform well.

Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with shooting at Cardinal. But the National Championships are not a business plan. If they were, they would have ended in 1968 when the majority of federal support ceased.

jmdavis wrote:Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with shooting at Cardinal. But the National Championships are not a business plan. If they were, they would have ended in 1968 when the majority of federal support ceased.

Totally agree, but you either have to have a benefactor or be self sustaining.  If your benefactor is getting pressure for return on investment (bringing in new shooters) then they are going to look at which programs (probably youth programs) they run that deserve the money they have in their budget.  Any programs that are either self sustaining or generate revenue will not get pressured, everything else will (that's us).  

As far as developing a culture of shooting, that needs to be done at a much younger age than the typical bullseye shooter.  That's done at the high school level or before.  I look to programs like the Minnesota High School Clay Target program to be what really develops the future interest in competitive shooting.  You know some of those young competitors will be future "Precision Pistol" competitors. 

MN State High School Clay Target League
2001-2008:  3 teams, 3 schools, 30 athletes
2009: 6 teams, 6 schools, 60 athletes
2010:  13 teams, 15 schools, 340 athletes
2011:  29 teams, 34 schools, 707 athletes
2012:  57 teams, 100 schools, 1,715 athletes (spring/fall)
2013: 115 teams, 215 schools, 4,200 athletes (spring/fall)
2014: 185 teams, 275 schools, 6,100 athletes (spring)
2015: 268 teams, 425 schools, 8,600 athletes (spring)

Relevant point is that shooting venues like the one being proposed at Cardinal will help attract new shooters - all year long, not just for the Nationals.

- Dave

ps kind of a good read about what MN has done for Trap Shooting and the clubs:
http://mnclaytarget.com/2015/12/07/bigsuccess-minnesota-high-school-league-a-report-by-dana-farrell/

Dave, 

We have talked here many times about the difference in publicity and support of Bianchi and the National Championships. I recently came across a copy of American Rifleman from Oct. of 1990 that makes the PR side really clear. 

In that issue over 10 pages were devoted to the National Championships with 2 page spreads for HighPower, Bullseye and Smallbore that all ran to at least one more page of information. Compare that to the past few years. 

It takes work to get support. But here's the thing. If the work doesn't happen the support doesn't either. How many years have the pistol targets at Perry needed rehabilitation? How much effort did the sponsoring organization put into that. I understand that CMP owns the targets, but the NRA shoots on them more than the CMP. How much would it have cost on a per competitor basis over the last decade to completely rehabilitate when the cost was split between the CMP and the NRA? 

I agree with you about the culture of Marksmanship and age. But let's face it, how many youth air pistol programs do we have in the US vs. Europe? The answer is not many. We have 4h on the rifle side, but competitive pistol shooting is rare before college. I would really like to hear Bickars thoughts on this.

Full disclosure, I have not voted.  My option would be to keep it at Camp Perry with paper targets with new turners and some range modifications.
 

That being said, I realize it's beyond my ability to keep things from changing.  I've only been to Perry 4 times.  Every trip feels like I'm making a pilgrimage to the Mecca of the shooting world.  I look at the range almost like Hallowed ground.  To think I'm shooting on the same ground and conditions as Bullseye shooters have for over 100 years is humbling to say the least. 



That feeling would be diminished at best, if we make the move to the Cardinal Center.  I've looked at the facility on the internet, and by far, it's a top tier shooting center, but it's not Camp Perry.  From comments made, housing may be an issue. 

Does Perry have it's issues, absolutely.  The lake of 2013 and the swamp of 2015, drives those points home.  An elevated firing line closer to the parking lot, 25 and 50 yard elevations would go a long way to minimize the excessive moisture trap as well as make it a bit easier for older shooters to get from the parking lot to the firing line. I'm 60 years old and I can tell the difference in my ability to lug my box & stuff compared to my first trip there 12 years ago.  I have no idea what the median age of Bullseye shooters is, but I see a lot of grey hair out there.

I'll continue to attend the National Matches at Camp Perry every year I'm able to.  And, if it ever changes to the Cardinal Center, I'll attend there.  At least once, more than that would depend on the Cardinal experience.


Now for my opinion on the change over to electronic targets:
Paper is cheap, electronics aren't.  Advances in technology would be making a sizable investment in today's state of the art, obsolete and requiring additional sizable investments in updated equipment due to the fact that the ''Old technology" would no longer be available.  I've been working with computers since the 80's, replacement parts for an IBM sys 5280z (first business computer I had) are not easy to find at the local computer store (also haven't used one of those for over 25~ years, and don't miss it a bit).  I don't know when the current target system was built, but I'm willing to bet it's been working for more than 25 years.



Dennis & others, Thank you very much for keeping us in the loop.  I know no matter what the final outcome, some will be upset, some happy, & some indifferent.  Any way you look at it (doing something or doing nothing) someone's not going to be happy.


I for one, am very thankful I was introduced to Bullseye.  I would have missed meeting a wonderful crowd of passionate shooters who are the salt of the earth.

Al Schirado
Bismarck

Again you are correct, it does take work, the link in my other post attests to that!  But it was NOT the ATA or any other org. that did the ground work for MNSHSCTL! It was people that had a passion for the sport! 

Sponsors:
The one thing about the Bianchi cup is it gets TV coverage/revenue, even though it's not a mainstream channel (Shooting USA) advertisers are willing to pay because of the exposure continues after the event.  The TV coverage is recent, maybe the last 5 years.  The only exposure event sponsors of our National gets are the actual competitors and maybe a pic in the mag (unless they pay for an ad).  Getting the video exposure is also why you see more "sponsored shooters" getting full rides - not just free bullets.  Bianchi cup and 3G are fun to watch, Precision Pistol, unfortunately not so much - maybe it could be??  

Perry upkeep:
The costs to keep the pistol targets running at Perry for one event once a year and 600-800 shooters is astronomically high compared to a permanent range holding multiple events annually.  It costs a lot just to set up, do needed repairs to make them functional, then take them down and store the targets each year. I've been told most the damage occurs during take down and storage process.  I've also been told that the costs being wasted on set up, repair, take down and storage would have easily been enough to replace the target systems many times over the years.  Not sure it's possible but a permanent location (with turning targets) at Perry would solve those costs issues.  Unfortunately these ongoing costs don't go away with new targets - just maybe less repair for a couple of years, until they get beat up too.  

When it comes down to it it's ALWAYS about the money.

- Dave

Exposure:
Here is why I see the CMP approach using eTarget as a way of getting more exposure.  You would actually be able to sign in and watch the target of any competitor live.  This does open some opportunities for a "Precision Pistol National's" production made for TV or youtube and more viewer exposure = more sponsors.

If Camp Perry goes electronic, other clubs may follow and as more and more clubs follow Perry's lead, turning target system may disappear and NRA will be dragged into the electronic age.  I wonder if Cardinal investment in turning targets may be a bad investment in old technology.  This is happening now for rifle targets.

It's happening for rifle targets because rifle targets don't turn, and the electronic targets are compatible with that sport.

Bullseye will need to change before we start seeing widespread bullseye shooters firing on non-turning electronic targets.

Rob Kovach wrote:It's happening for rifle targets because rifle targets don't turn, and the electronic targets are compatible with that sport.

Bullseye will need to change before we start seeing widespread bullseye shooters firing on non-turning electronic targets.  

For the rapid strings, the signal for commence firing is to raise the target so there is target motion in highpower.

steve_podleski wrote:If Camp Perry goes electronic, other clubs may follow and as more and more clubs follow Perry's lead, turning target system may disappear and NRA will be dragged into the electronic age.  I wonder if Cardinal investment in turning targets may be a bad investment in old technology.  This is happening now for rifle targets.

At $3-4K per lane there is only 1 club in MN that could even possibly swing it, and if they asked the Precision Pistol shooters to justify the expense and prove there would be a payback it would probably never happen.

- Dave

Steve, as I recall, and it's been 40 years, when you see the targets rise, you drop into your positions. I don't recall holding a sight picture and waiting for the target to rise to it.

Highpower and bullseye are apples and apricots imho...