New Pistol Dates at Camp Perry

First topic message reminder :

Due to the High Power matches being moved from Camp Perry to Camp Atterbury, IN, the pistol dates will change. The championship will now be held July 9-14, 2017.

Denny

Well unless I can reschedule vacation that blows Canton as well. Ah well. 

The 13th-14th will be interesting with All Ranges needing to be cleared and pistol targets broken down to be occupied for HP on the 15th.

Screw it. I might just go to Sparta in August and shoot trap!

After reading all the comments here, let me see if I can trace out for the totally confused what appears to have happened here.  


There seems to be long standing problems between the NRA people and the CMP as to who pays the various shares of the costs of operation of Camp Perry.  

It is my opinion, that since the budget sequester, the Ohio National Guard, rightly or wrongly has been trying to extract more money out of both the NRA and the CMP to cover the very real, and also their own bureaucratically induced costs of running the National matches at Camp Perry Ohio.  

At some point a couple of years ago, an improvement contract was signed by someone, most likely the Ohio Guard and the CMP for drainage and berm improvements at Camp Perry that was executed with so little planning and supervision (as most government contracts are) that it ended up totally ruining the ranges at Camp Perry for long range rifle.  

Also at some point, in the planning stages for the matches this year, it became slightly inconvienent and costly to house NRA staff and volunteers over the 4th of July at Camp Perry or Port Clinton.  

Because both organizations operate the matches on a fixed budget without any concerns for the impact of increased or decreased attendance on their revenues, this was seen as a huge deal and the Pistol matches were all scheduled before this date to avoid this issue through a joint agreement between the three players.  

Since no one anticipated that the berm improvements would cause a rebellion of the long range rifle competitors everything seemed fine and dandy until they refused to shoot at Perry.  

So, the long range matches were moved to Indiana leaving a big hole in the Camp Perry schedule which the NRA had an incentive to fill with the pistol matches because they want to keep all their staff from Virginia at Camp Perry for the duration, and dont want them cooling their heels for a week of nothing at Camp Perry or paying travel costs back to Virginia for an empty week.  

The CMP wants to stick with the original schedule for a lot of good reasons, including the certainty of planning and housing for competitors and volunteers who have already committed to the dates as published.  

The NRA wants to move the pistol matches to fill the hole, BUT  forgot to take into account that a rifle match after a rifle match is no big deal as to range changes and set up, but a rifle match after a pistol match is, because of two days of hard labor required to reconfigure the range.    

Once they think this through they will realize that it is now impossible for the mid range competition to start the day after pistol ends,  unless they have a way to induce the volunteers and staff to work all night reconfiguring the ranges.  

I think they are between a rock and a hard spot, and most of the problems were created by not treating the shooters, and the NRA match directors, both rifle and pistol as stake holders, and interested parties, at the beginning of the planning process.   


If anyone can add anything or correct me where I am wrong, please feel free to add comments.  

Not my circus, not my monkeys.    Just someone who wants to shoot with my friends at Bristol, Canton, and Perry, and have it convenient and affordable enough for everyone so  that we have maximum participation at all the matches.  


As an aside, I think the CMP really shot themselves in the foot with some of their LEG match rule changes.  Im not driving several hundred miles to shoot a stand alone Service pistol 30 shot match in a potential hail storm with a minimum score requirement and a 20 buck match fee.   For the number of rounds fired, with them being a non profit their match fees at Perry are a bit stiff also.  But those are other issues.  

It is already depressing turnout here in the west.  The LEG donner pool has pretty much dried up.  I think the CMP has lost sight of the fact of their orginal misson, to promote shooting, and that a huge part of the original appeal  of LEG matches was that they were both fun and cheap.  One dollar entry fee, ammo provided, and if a bunch of rifle shooters wanted to try pistol they could borrow a gun, and give it a go, and they might get lucky.   If they didn't, well at least it was fun and cheap.  


So while I might support the CMP becoming the governing body for precision pistol, I think their inclination to tinker with guns, match rules, fees, venues, and electronic targets may end up killing the LEG matches, the way it has just about destroyed the NTT match at Camp Perry.  Not sure I trust them to listen to the competitors and the match directors any beter than the NRA does.

That about covers it... 
but there is the E-target thing, the CMP trying to take over small bore thing, the separation of NRA/CMP financial at Perry thing, the no cross training of volunteers thing....  
and I am know I am missing a few more things...

Cmp should just pull the trigger and move the nti and p100 to a cmp national championship w/ games matches in Talladega, and the NRA can move to cardinal for Pistols nationals

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssusa_201611/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=insider&utm_campaign=1116#/44

NRA Shooting Sports USA

Just got it, telling me Camp Perry, June 26-30!

*disclaimer at bottom.....

I think I'll keep my reservations, tour the lakes, visit Cleveland, etc....

I guess someone didn't get the memo.

I was just writing a response to say that there is no resason for CMP to move, other than potential to embarrass the NRA. They have dates, they can run matches.

If any of you know members of the Pistol Committee ask them if they know anything about the dates changing. If you know members of the silhouette committee ask them about what the past few months have been like in dealing with competitions. There answers might both surprise and scare you.

People do not like uncertainty. The silhouette shooters have been dealing with it for months. Now Bullseye and a Highpower are getting their turns. Big changes require more than bold decisions. They require detailed plans, tests and backup plans. How many of those are we seeing in these recent decisions for events that bring hundreds of people together from around the country. Just look at the dates, how can the 45 match be shot on a day when tear down should be complete for ranges 1-4. So that Viale and Rodriguez can be ready for 1100 rifle shooters. Then look at the fact that the Midrange and Long Range NRA rifle dates overlap the P100 and NTI. You might conclude that the reason for moving pistol was to attempt the CMP to change the rifle dates.

KB2MBC wrote:Who was it that said things were quiet around here lately?

That would be me.

A week goes by and all hell breaks loose.

You just had to say it... didn't you...

 

The CMP will not be changing their match dates for the 2017 National Matches. The First Shot Ceremony will be [url=x-apple-data-detectors://2]on June 26[/url], National Trophy Pistol Matches will be [url=x-apple-data-detectors://3]June 30-July 2[/url] and National Trophy Rifle & National CMP Games matches will be [url=x-apple-data-detectors://4]July 14-July 25.[/url]
 

We will be posting the National Match schedule in a couple weeks after all decisions are final but the CMP will not be changing any 2017 National Match dates.


If you have any questions please feel free to email me.
 

Thank you,
Christina

Christina Roguski
Competition Associate
[url=mhtml:{65A6B95F-4DA6-4707-BDCD-F6EB5D8C32C7}mid://00000408/!x-usc:http://www.thecmp.org/]Civilian Marksmanship Program[/url]
Phone: [url=tel:419-635-2141;714]419-635-2141 ext. 714[/url] Fax: [url=tel:419-635-2802]419-635-2802[/url]
croguski@thecmp.org

The following email was sent out.  Clearly the range change over to rifle will have to be made right in the middle of the putative NRA pistol match schedule.   I suspect the CMP controls the range so my guess is that the NRA will eventually either have to knuckle under to the CMP schedule or move the NRA pistol matches to some other venue.

Christopher Miceli wrote:Cmp should just pull the trigger and move the nti and p100 to a cmp national championship w/ games matches in Talladega, and the NRA can move to cardinal for Pistols nationals

Taladega facility is nice but the small range for pistol would never hold the large number of shooters that show up without having many relays. Also the electronic targets still have bugs, ive shot twice there and they had issues both times.

But but but they are the greatest thing in shooting....

DavidR wrote:

Christopher Miceli wrote:Cmp should just pull the trigger and move the nti and p100 to a cmp national championship w/ games matches in Talladega, and the NRA can move to cardinal for Pistols nationals

Taladega facility is nice but the small range for pistol would never hold the large number of shooters that show up without having many relays. Also the electronic targets still have bugs, ive shot twice there and they had issues both times.

Never been there...figured with all that land they would have lots of firing points

Danehogle wrote:But but but they are the greatest thing in shooting....

I prefer turning targets. But I plan to shoot  Talledega soon. 

The facility there was never built for the nationals. 54 rifle targets, 50 pistol targets and I think a 50 point smallbore Range. It's large enough for a regional or state match and that's about it.

On the other hand the CMP also has a lease for the Largest Rifle Range Complex in the world, that can also support  relays of over 400 pistol shooters, has 40 RV  spaces, tent camping, multiple barracks, motel style housing, 100 huts, hundreds of condos within 20 minutes, 6 motels and hotels, 3 other camp grounds, thousands of square feet of vendor space, an indoor 80point air gun range, all set on a Lake that is an international vacation destination.

Talladega has 25, not 50, firing points that can be used for bullseye. The other 25 points have neither electronic targets nor any turning mechanisms. No shooting in Talladega before 9am. 25 man relays starting at 9:00 makes for a LONG match for 100 shooters.

jmdavis wrote:

Danehogle wrote:But but but they are the greatest thing in shooting....

I prefer turning targets. But I plan to shoot  Talledega soon. 

The facility there was never built for the nationals. 54 rifle targets, 50 pistol targets and I think a 50 point smallbore Range. It's large enough for a regional or state match and that's about it.

On the other hand the CMP also has a lease for the Largest Rifle Range Complex in the world, that can also support  relays of over 400 pistol shooters, has 40 RV  spaces, tent camping, multiple barracks, motel style housing, 100 huts, hundreds of condos within 20 minutes, 6 motels and hotels, 3 other camp grounds, thousands of square feet of vendor space, an indoor 80point air gun range, all set on a Lake that is an international vacation destination.

That still expects competitors to stand in knee deep crap,  in an open field, 150 yards away from the parking plot, and a Cold War vintage vendors row,   with thousands of dollars or equipment while paying top $ " for the privilege... 
I like 400 Rv spots, 300 purpose built covered concrete firing points,  100 feet from your rented golf cart. But that's just me....

When they are ready and have completed their first regional, or have their first regional scheduled, let me know. I would shoot Cardinal. But fixing the drainage at Perry is not an insurmountable problem either. I'm luke warm on overhead cover particularly for iron sight leg matches. More light helps my old eyes with irons. 

But this topic is supposedly about the schedule at Perry. I didn't even think that the new schedule might be set up to force CMP to refuse so that Dennis could move to Cardinal. But why wouldn't he just do it anyway? No need for all of the drama and uncertainty months after a schedule was agreed upon.

Does anybody else think it noteworthy that DirComp has essentially ignored this thread since his petulant outburst?

Pretty much what we saw for silhouette and high power too. I realize that he has a tough job. He is charged with trying to minimize costs while not making too many people irate. I said in the beginning I'm just a life member competitive shooter with the NRA in my will

Eh, if our opinions mattered they would have asked BEFORE they changed everything.....

orpheoet wrote:Eh, if our opinions mattered they would have asked BEFORE they changed everything.....

While wary of predicting anything involving NRA scheduling, the CMP has clearly taken a stand here regarding scheduling, and there is an obvious conflict between the proposed new dates for Pistol, and some CMP rifle matches.  


I say the CMP is on the horn now to the NRA board, which, as stated in the original article, has to vote on the schedule change in Janaury anyway.  


Right now I would guess the smart money says bet on the NRA keeping the original dates for pistol as announced and finalized several months ago.

I hope you're right Kate.

I don't know Schaumannk, smart money wouldn't make a bet at all. If I told you this past July rifle was going away,.... you would have laughed.....

Danehogle wrote:I don't know Schaumannk, smart money wouldn't make a bet at all. If I told you this past July rifle was going away,.... you would have laughed.....

If I were a highpower shooter I am sure I woild be better attuned to what was going on at Perry and why they cant shoot there.   

I imagine the defects were discovered during competition this last summer and reported in a timely manner, but the NRA finalized the schedule anyway without addressing the problems.  


As to pistol, I have been in both contracting and shooting long enough to know that there is no pistol range in the US other than Perry that is capeable of handling 600 plus shooters in five days of competition with the current match format.  

Maybe five years from now, but not this year.  


The first and only mention of possibly moving the pistol dates was as an aside in an article discussing the fact that high power has been moved to Indiana.  

The NRA has no choice but to bow to the CMP which controls the range,  and the original schedule THAT THEY HAVE ALREADY AGREED TO...