New Pistol Dates at Camp Perry

First topic message reminder :

Due to the High Power matches being moved from Camp Perry to Camp Atterbury, IN, the pistol dates will change. The championship will now be held July 9-14, 2017.

Denny

It shall be a lot less than 5 years....

Danehogle wrote:It shall be a lot less than 5 years....

Hooe you are right sweetie, because without a guarantee of the national pistol matches being held there, and possibly the PPC and Bianchi Cup as well,  three hundred firing points is one heck of an investment for a *maybe*.

DirComp wrote:Due to the High Power matches being moved from Camp Perry to Camp Atterbury, IN, the pistol dates will change. The championship  will now be held July 9-14, 2017.

Denny

Denny, 

Is that the Final, Final, Done, Done calendar? You'll swear to it and guarantee everyone's condo rental fee? Have the Canton dates changed and are they final?

You do understand that that " maybe " already had 540 jr pistol shooters at there team nationals at 14 action pistol pits built in less than 5 months .... 
that Maybe already moved enough dirt for  the 50 meter berm that is 25'high and 700' long. 
That maybe already moved dirt to have the 100 meter berm 7' high an 900'long.
All with out a signed contract.... why do you think one is needed? 
Cardinal wants to have the best shooting facility in the USA...
And are well on their way to having it
Of corse...having a contract would speed up the building process.. 
like I said.... 14 action pistol pits and 14 skeet fields built in less than 6 months. 
4 ranges with 300 points total... and a deadline... yes it's possible

Wonder how venders of commercial row are feeling

Good question Chris,

The original dates of June had a conflict and I was not going to be making the trip to Perry this year but now with the change I will be attending and competing. I doubt I will be a vendor in 2017 with the chopped up schedule and tremendous cost of Vendor row. I do have a reservation in the Cardinal vendor row building 4 when it is finished.

There are 25 firing points at the current electronic pistol targets at Talledega. The NRA shoots a 900 match each day for 3 days for a 2700 match. There is no reason that the CMP could not do the same. The electronic targets makes the match run faster, but, the CMP also runs a match faster than most local clubs. I shot in the first 2700 match at Talledega. It ran very quickly, but that was partly because there seemed to be a real sense of urgency to get the job done and get off the field. I don't know if it was intentional, but it was in no way a relaxed and casual event. Because there is no target changing, and no walking down to targets, and no lugging equipment to the second firing line, it is a simple fact that there can be a lot of folks run through in a single day. With just a bit of hustle, they could run a single relay in 75 minutes, from 'Take your equipment to the line, your preparation period starts in 2 minutes', to 'Remove your equipment from the line'. It is not a casual or a relaxed schedule, but it is a possibility that they may try to accomplish. Starting at 0700, that is 4 relays before noon, and finishing up at 1830 could give another 5 relays. That totals 9 relays with 225 shooters.
But, there is currently no live fire at Talledega before 0900. And, there were almost 700 competitors this year in the NRA 2700 match. It is relatively obvious that there needs to be at least 125 firing points to be a reasonable schedule and handle the 2700 crowd that attended this year.
Of course, the CMP could shoot 2700 matches, just as the NRA did at Camp Perry. The equipment will be already set up. And, they could establish a new 'World Championship Something or Other' name to make it sound cool.
Lots of options. It is my sincere hope that someone figures something out.

Seems to me that we may more likely see the demise of the National Matches!  I only shoot pistol however there are some issues I think with things being moved from Perry.  

With fewer matches in a given time period there is less incentive for vendors to spend the money and make the effort to put up a temporary store at Perry.

If the CMP pistol and NRA matches remain split I expect that a lot of people will not spend all the extra lodging money to attend both and will probably pick the NRA matches since it is more shooting for the travel time and housing money spent.

It is too bad I thought that it was pretty nice the way it was for pistol shooting you could cover a lot of shooting in a short time and roll Canton in too for not much extra money.

Unless the CMP does what it say it will and offers class based competition for shooters. In which case you can shoot and sell at Perry where you will have over 1000 shooters or elsewhere. 

I did not plan to shoot NRA rifle this year. I did plan to shoot NRA pistol based on the schedule that was put out in August. If it stays the same I will shoot it. If it changes to the Rifle dates, I cannot. As I have said repeatedly the 45 day of NRA pistol in the new schedule conflicts with CMP rifle. Those ranges have to be cleared or the dates for one or both have to be changed. 

Further the NRA Long Range dates conflict with the NTI. Military teams can't be in two places simultaneously, nor can other shooters. 

NRA has cancelled Nationals for certain groups in the past. So far we have basically heard only a conclusion by the NRA and part of their story. I personally would like to hear the entire story and CMP's story.

Any information on pistol dates since the initial statement by the head of Competitions. I note that CMP has the same dates and Canton has the same dates. 

So how about it NRA, what are the dates for the Pistol matches?

I emailed Dennis Willing and the NRA Pistol email address again this morning.  I had emailed back on the 18th of Nov and had not received a response.  Here is the response I got from Dennis Willing this morning:

"Due to current talks in this area we are currently unable to answer your questions.

Denny"

dstates wrote:I emailed Dennis Willing and the NRA Pistol email address again this morning.  I had emailed back on the 18th of Nov and had not received a response.  Here is the response I got from Dennis Willing this morning:

"Due to current talks in this area we are currently unable to answer your questions.

Denny"

Sounds to me like they are trying to work out a common solution. I certainly hope so but I do wish these things could be done a little sooner. I have plenty of scheduling flexibility, but not everyone does.

weber1b wrote:

dstates wrote:I emailed Dennis Willing and the NRA Pistol email address again this morning.  I had emailed back on the 18th of Nov and had not received a response.  Here is the response I got from Dennis Willing this morning:

"Due to current talks in this area we are currently unable to answer your questions.

Denny"

Sounds to me like they are trying to work out a common solution. I certainly hope so but I do wish these things could be done a little sooner. I have plenty of scheduling flexibility, but not everyone does.

Right... I had approved time off for June schedule... cancelled it so I can put in for this new shit show schedule...I'm sure they will love me at work if I try and move it again

I'll either be at Perry last week of June, or charter fishing out of Port Clinton....

Jim,

As chaotic as it is for BE pistol, it is worse for Hipower rifle and LR shooters. So much stuff flying around.  I may see you on the lake, or something like that. :-)

If we are all lucky, the two entities in the fight will come together and renew their understandings of our needs once again. If not, the divorcing parents will continue to fight over whats-what and all of us will suffer. Don;t hold your breath.

-Ron

james r chapman wrote:I'll either be at Perry last week of June, or charter fishing out of Port Clinton....

I thought you wuz gonna go shoot trap?

I for one hope they go with the revised dates, the original dates didn't work for me. But for everyone in my shoes there are those in just the opposite situation.  I usually don't even look at the schedule until registration opens up.  But I know there are others that have to put in for time off way in advance.

Personally I hope this forces a move to Cardinal.  Even though Cardinal isn't suppose to be running before June, I'd bet this could get that schedule moved up.

- Dave

Wobbley wrote:

james r chapman wrote:I'll either be at Perry last week of June, or charter fishing out of Port Clinton....

I thought you wuz gonna go shoot trap?

Wife had a say in it....

Has anyone else heard from Dennis Willing or the CMP?

Apparently this topic has gone dark with the NRA and CMP. My best guess is we will get definitive answers several weeks past the time to submit annual vacation plans.

This is in the NRAs court they decided to change the pistol dates to something that would conflict with CMP rifle. CMP had said that the dates the parties agreed to in July are the dates. 

The CMP dates have not changed, the NRA  dates conflict with others (including their own highpower dates). Cantons dates seem the same according to their website (June 23-25). 

All of the confusion does make wonder if the entire point of the changes is to sew confusion and promote discord. If that is true, we have to ask why? We also have to question, based on past examples the lack of communication with the membership.

I think you're reading too much into this. We don't know what happened in the negotiations between the NRA and the CMP, but I don't see the NRA making a lot of demands. More likely the CMP said this is the way it's going to be, take it or leave it. When the NRA moved Highpower the CMP and/or OHNG probably still expected them to pay for the dead time in the schedule.

If the NRA wanted to kill Precision Pistol (or Highpower or International or Blackpowder), they would just do it, 95% of the membership wouldn't even notice. There's no need to go through shenanigans. They just don't want to subsidize us.

There are a lot of things about the NRA that I don't like and I would be the first to assume they are incompetent and duplicitous, but in this case it really looks like the NRA is being screwed, not the other way around. For one thing, we have heard from Dennis and the NRA. The CMP hasn't said a word. If they were really concerned about us competitors they would let us know what the hell is going on.

Steve, the NRA decided to move the pistol dates into conflict. The CMP had nothing to do with that. Look at the success of the smallbore move, how much is competition down? Look at the confusion over the silhouette dates and locations. Look at moving the rifle matches with 7 months of notice and to prepare a facility.

 I'm not saying that there is something nefarious going on. But there are some major issues that have nothing to do with the CMP. At best the denote a lack of communication.

jmdavis wrote:Steve, the NRA decided to move the pistol dates into conflict. The CMP had nothing to do with that. Look at the success of the smallbore move, how much is competition down? Look at the confusion over the silhouette dates and locations. Look at moving the rifle matches with 7 months of notice and to prepare a facility.

 I'm not saying that there is something nefarious going on. But there are some major issues that have nothing to do with the CMP. At best the denote a lack of communication.

I think the original calendar pissed everyone off, that's what I was hearing.  The rifle match move was a recommendation/request from the competitors.  Making that move and opening up those dates at Perry gave the NRA a chance to get pistol back to the "normal" week.  Maybe it was a wrong assumption on their part but from where I stand no one gets a pass on this mess from day one  CMP, NRA and OHNG.

I truely believe CMP and OHNG have a plan in place that doesn't include the NRA and they made it impossible to keep the rifle guys happy so when NRA agreed to the move reccomendation and changed the pistol dates at Perry the CMP put the NRA in a "check" situation.  The result is Perry will not be the same going forward no matter what.

- Dave