Using a Lyman "M" Die in a Dillon 650

Good Morning:

So, I came into a Lyman "M" Die for 45 ACP this weekend.  I understand that the goal is to properly expand the case mouth in such a way as to allow the bullet to be seated straight as possible; not cause case neck or bullet deforming, etc.  I have known about the "M" dies for some time and am now just experimenting with it.

How would I use this on a Dillon 650, place it in position 1 (assuming the use of presized and decapped brass) negating the need for the Sizer in station 1?

What do I do about the expander in the Powder Station?  This would expand the mouth again if left as is?  Is there a way of dropping pistol powder without yet another expansion/overworking of the brass?

Really my ammo is coming out OK for the short line as it shoots better than I do.... Trying to pick up some group size reduction for the 50 out of the Ransom rest which I hope to capitalize on later on the long line....

Appreciate the insight.....

Regards,

Wally

I'm in the process of getting a Dillon 650 to load 45 acp cast bullets.  From my current activities with an older Lee turret press using RCBS and Lee dies, I found that seating the cast bullet on the shoulder (circumference) squarely seated the bullet when using a flared case.  In other words, as long as a shoulder seating insert was used in the die, the case flare was not a factor in squarely seating the cast lead bullet.

In fact, I measured a NOE expander plug for the Lee universal expander die (which is supposed to duplicate the Lyman-M expander) I bought and found the plug to measure 0.448" diameter at the base, 0.451" diameter at the first step, and 0.472" on the last step.  In contrast, my Lee 45 acp thru powder expander has a diameter of 0.452" up to the flare portion.  I was going to machine one of the Lee powder through expanders to match the profile of the Lyman-M expander, until I started loading cast bullets with a seating insert that operated on the shoulder rather than the nose of the bullet.  I found no compelling evidence that the steps (which I don't think would show up in the brass expansion) are critical, provided the seating plug operates on the bullet shoulder.  If loading using a nose pressing seating die insert for cast bullets, the Lyman-M die would make a difference.

The above is not a condemnation of the Lyman-M expander die, but rather my observations and experience with a shoulder seating die insert with the standard (in this case Lee) flare expander die.  For the price of the Lyman-M die, it's worth a try, particularly if using a standard bullet seating die.

Edit: for the technical questions regarding the Dillon 650 press and dies, I would be inclined to contact Dillon customer service.

I use a 550 with an "M type" expander in the powder drop die.  I made my own, but there is a guy somewhere on ebay who makes and sells them.  Same idea would work on a 650.

There are aftermarket M type expanders, but the OP has an M Die already and wishes to use that.

In reality, the Dillon powder system isn’t the best design.  If you buy a Hornady powder system setup with a case Activated drop and a small pistol drum or the similar RCBS unit, your powder drop will be more uniform and it will handle all types of powders.  Each of these two systems can be setup to work without expansion.  Or with.  The Hornady unit Has quick change metering stems so different powder charges can be swapped out quickly.  Once you try it you won’t go back.

This is how I do it and it works for me.
I unscrew the powder drop die so it still drops powder correctly,
but does not flare the case mouth. ( at least very little )
I do not use a powder check or powder cop die, so the next station is empty.
I use the M-die in that station, adjusted to my liking.

I also use a small off press mounted camera pointed at that station to confirm powder drop and amount.

gray wolf wrote:This is how I do it and it works for me.
I unscrew the powder drop die so it still drops powder correctly,
but does not flare the case mouth. ( at least very little )
I do not use a powder check or powder cop die, so the next station is empty.
I use the M-die in that station, adjusted to my liking.

I also use a small off press mounted camera pointed at that station to confirm powder drop and amount.

Ditto

Dr.Don wrote:I use a 550 with an "M type" expander in the powder drop die.  I made my own, but there is a guy somewhere on ebay who makes and sells them.  Same idea would work on a 650.

What he said, this works spectacular on my 550.

You can move the powder drop over to the next spot (where you would place the powder check) and back it off so it just drops the powder.  You will need to turn it so that the activating rod is properly lined up.  Then, place the M die where the powder drop originally was (station 2, just after the deprime and resizer) so the order will be:  1- deprime and resize, 2- M die flare, and new primer, 3- drop powder, 4- set and seat Bullet, 5- crimp, 6- finished round.  Works like a charm!

Dr Don & Multiracer:
Are either or both of you guys using the shoulder seater off of E-Bay?

I machined my own.

Yes, it works fine for all types of SWC as well as some others.
Ron

Who makes this shoulder seater?  Does it work better than the Redding Competition Bullet seating die?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dillon-45-Cal-seating-Insert/142614290663?hash=item21347960e7m6CuIQZOw1ulTftxlV6oL1g

Thanks Multiracer. I am currently using the Redding competition Bullet seating die with excellent results, but this would be a nice backup to use in my Dillon dies.

Multiracer wrote:https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dillon-45-Cal-seating-Insert/142614290663?hash=item21347960e7m6CuIQZOw1ulTftxlV6oL1g

That's the same vendor (rrpmi) who I bought my RCBS and Lee 45 shoulder seating inserts from.   Good product, prompt service.  I'm still contemplating machining one of my Lee through powder expanders to have a step profile, like the Lyman M expander.  I'll have to check if the Lee thorough powder expanders are hardened.

I would be curious about that also.
Please post up when you have a response.
I would ber curious what it reads on Rockwell RC scale.

I don't actually have a RC scale tester, just some files I bought from Grizzly which provide an approximate range of hardness.  I got them for post heat treatment testing.  I bought four of those Lee 45acp through powder expanders from Lee and (ahem) need to find them.

Edit: It turns out the thru powder expanders are hardened.  Not a surprise.  I've got a Proxxon grinder with a tool holder to try.

Bullseye_Stan wrote:I don't actually have a RC scale tester, just some files I bought from Grizzly which provide an approximate range of hardness.  I got them for post heat treatment testing.  I bought four of those Lee 45acp through powder expanders from Lee and (ahem) need to find them.

Not everybody has a Rockwell test machine in their reloading room.

I opened up an older lee seating stem leaving just the shoulder. Works great and almost as easy to clean up as the Dillon insert. If I'd known about the modified Dillon inserts probably would have went that route. Still may order one as it appears to be easier to pop the clip and pull it out to clean.